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Apple lossless official announcement

Jhify

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Not to doubt your hearing but I've said and thought this many times only to fail once the time came to do blind test :(

I feel ya. Honestly on speakers in a living room no chance I could ever make any difference. At night time, in the pitch dark room, with headphones, the brain is able to pick up a tiny bit more information. At least it works for me and differences were subtle, but obvious. Once again maybe it was all my imagination I'm not claiming anything scientific here.
I'm still going to use Apple music I just wish the sound management was a bit more comprehensive on macs.
 

Zensō

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I feel ya. Honestly on speakers in a living room no chance I could ever make any difference. At night time, in the pitch dark room, with headphones, the brain is able to pick up a tiny bit more information. At least it works for me and differences were subtle, but obvious. Once again maybe it was all my imagination I'm not claiming anything scientific here.
I'm still going to use Apple music I just wish the sound management was a bit more comprehensive on macs.
You didn’t mention if you manually matched the sample rate in midi.app to the test track? Wondering if this could be your issue. MacOS still doesn’t have auto sample rate switching. Ironically, iOS does, which theoretically makes it a better platform than MacOS for streaming to a USB DAC.
 

dmac6419

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Zensō

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it's not an issue of the operating system, but of the app. Other apps can do this just fine, like Tidal, Qobuz or Roon.
Got it. I guess what I should have said is when an app doesn’t provide exclusive mode, auto switching is not available on a Mac. Same result in the end (no auto switching on MacOS when using Apple Music).
 

dmac6419

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Sooo.. Last night I did a late night session just before going to bed (they're the best) to A/B Apple music lossless and Tidal. Both with 44.1/16 tracks. I was not expecting to be able to hear any difference at all but I wanted to give it a go just in case. Both sounded good after few tracks of casual listening and then I settled for one of my favorites that I used to reference my mixes and test my gear: Fhin - Your Heart Sounds Like. It's full of micro details, fast transients all across the frequency range and perfect for some enjoyable critical listening I wanted to do.

And to my big surprise... Tidal sounded better.. but read till the end. I was definitely not expecting that. And kept listening the same 15 seconds of the track back and forth. Apple, Tidal, Apple, Tidal, and I could definitely pick up differences. For exemple Hihats on Tidal were lively, lifelike with more dynamic, with subtle changes in frequency and velocity whereas on apple they sounded more identical, linear, and flat. Note that I'm being picky and changes are subtle but I'm pretty confident in this listening condition I was, I could tell which one is which in a blind test.

I was actually very disappointed, not with apple, but with myself. How is it possible I let my brain trick me like this into believing tidal is better ?

Then I figured that tidal output was set up to use the DAC in exclusive mode. Could it be ... ? I changed the output of tidal to "system controlled" and did A/B tests again. And yep, now both sound the same. No differences to my hears, I could not tell which one is which. Then I went back to tidal and compared the output set up on system controlled and using the DAC in exclusive mode and yet again I could hear an improvement.

It's seem like the audio processing in a mac by the system still degrades the quality of the stream. (I knew it used to be a thing, hence why players like Audirvana exist I guess, but I thought this would have been fixed by Apple for a long time.) Whereas tidal with its exclusive mode option offers the possibility to give a (probably) bit perfect stream to your DAC.
I was quite disappointed with Apple that they didn't implement setting up the use of usb DACs directly in the player (just for convenience in the first place...) but I didn't think that it could worsen the sound by this much. I assume using airplay and a streamer, then you'd have a good quality stream but if you use USB DACs it seems like we won't be able to enjoy apple lossless to its full potential until they update the system output.
I have Tidal and Amazon HD Atmos sounds different on both,also have Apple, I'll run it through the Onyko via iTunes with windows 10 and see if there's a difference,also Atmos sounds different via Nvidia shield apps , Samsung tv app,firebox app,etc with Amazon and Tidal
 
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Jhify

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You didn’t mention if you manually matched the sample rate in midi.app to the test track? Wondering if this could be your issue. MacOS still doesn’t have auto sample rate switching. Ironically, iOS does, which theoretically makes it a better platform than MacOS for streaming to a USB DAC.

Sample rate was manually set on 44.1 ans I used tracks that were only in 44.1 both on apple music and tidal. But yep, that's one more thing that could be improved on macOs. It might take a couple more years but that's something they will upgrade at some point eventually.
Just like managing outputs from the Music app. I'm pretty confident they'll do it at some point. It'd be just a copy/paste from logic pro.
 

KenG

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Something is definately not right here:

View attachment 134641
A: this track is supposed to be Dolby Atmos
B: the album clearly states it lossless, but I only see 256 kbps in the file info.

I have Dolby Atmos Always enabled, as well as Lossless up to the highest rates. Other albums seem to play fine losslessly.

One of those Dolby Atmos Playlists does not show the Atmos Logo Anywhere in the player with any songs. I'm pretty sure I've seen this yesterday though. File info on most of them just shows "stream", without any additional information, so could be anything.

On iOS I don't see issues. It plays the tracks as Atmos just fine.

Edit: it's get's even stranger.. Now restated Music, and went to the same song via a different entry point:
View attachment 134642
Still not Atmos though...


It's because the music is in the Cloud (see cloud status). I belong to the iTunes Match for my 20K + catalog and discovered (and verified with Apple) that all of the songs I have in iTunes Match (Cloud) will not properly stream in Lossless or HiRes. Apparently Apple Music defaults to the bit/sample rate that is in the Cloud which is 256 AAC MP3. The only work around is to cancel iTunes Match and/or start deleting music that is stored in the Cloud. Since the iTunes Match subscription is annual, even canceling won't work immediately and the songs will stay in the Cloud until the subscription expiration date (which is November in my case). Thus I need to manually delete albums from the cloud that I would like to listen to in Lossless/HiRes.

This might also be an issue for any music purchased from iTunes but not sure.
 

voodooless

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It's because the music is in the Cloud (see cloud status). I belong to the iTunes Match for my 20K + catalog and discovered (and verified with Apple) that all of the songs I have in iTunes Match (Cloud) will not properly stream in Lossless or HiRes. Apparently Apple Music defaults to the bit/sample rate that is in the Cloud which is 256 AAC MP3. The only work around is to cancel iTunes Match and/or start deleting music that is stored in the Cloud. Since the iTunes Match subscription is annual, even canceling won't work immediately and the songs will stay in the Cloud until the subscription expiration date (which is November in my case). Thus I need to manually delete albums from the cloud that I would like to listen to in Lossless/HiRes.

This might also be an issue for any music purchased from iTunes but not sure.

I don't have anything in Music Match, nor do I have the subscription.
 

Tim Link

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I don't know if I'm actually hearing anything, but I sure like it when I see that lossless graphic on a song or album. Makes me feel like I'm getting something a little more special.
 

KenG

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I don't have anything in Music Match, nor do I have the subscription.
Did you purchase the song/album from iTunes? Your screenshot shows that song is being stored in the cloud so I would suggest deleting it from the cloud/library and retrying to stream it.

Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 8.23.22 AM.png
 

voodooless

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Did you purchase the song/album from iTunes? Your screenshot shows that song is being stored in the cloud so I would suggest deleting it from the cloud/library and retrying to stream it.

View attachment 134704

Nope, dit not buy anything. For some reason, It was added to my library though. But that does not mean it's downloaded locally (and if so, I had it set to highest quality download). I removed it now, but that doesn't change a thing.
 

Katji

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Lots of interesting stuff showing up in MacRumours. (New addition to my RSS.)
(I suppose this'll add to the confusion...)

-----
'Spatialize Stereo' Feature in iOS 15 and macOS Monterey Simulates Spatial Audio for Non-Dolby Content
In iOS 15 and macOS Monterey betas, Apple has quietly included a new audio feature called "Spatialize Stereo" that takes any non-Dolby stereo mix and creates a virtual spatial audio environment out of it.
The addition was first discovered by a Reddit user, who had this to say about it:

I assumed that if they ever did this it would warrant at the very least a mention in a Keynote, but unless I completely missed it today I don't think they said anything about it!

The greatest thing about this is that it supports EVERY audio track. Sure I'd pick Atmos Spatial Audio mixes over Spatialized Stereo every time, but for the moment there are only a dozen or so options for Atmos available on Apple Music, so this is such an amazing feature to have!
It's worth reiterating that Spatialize Stereo is different from Spatial Audio, which Apple brought to ‌Apple Music‌ subscribers earlier this week. Spatial Audio with support for Dolby Atmos creates a three-dimensional experience by moving sound all around you.

Spatialize Stereo meanwhile appears to be Apple's attempt to simulate the effect of having sound coming at you from different directions in a virtual environment. It doesn't utilize Dolby Atmos, but on the other hand it works with basically any content, although you do need AirPods Pro or AirPods Max headphones to access it. Here's how it works in the latest ‌iOS 15‌ beta: [...]


spatialize-stereo.jpg
 

dkinric

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I don't know if I'm actually hearing anything, but I sure like it when I see that lossless graphic on a song or album. Makes me feel like I'm getting something a little more special.
I like knowing that I am feeding my expensive rig a measurably better source. I will stipulate that I may or may not pass a blind test between AAC and lossless, but I don't really care. If I believe it is lossless, I will believe it sounds better and I will get more excited about listening to it.
I am fully aware of my cognitive biases, and I embrace them :)
 

Tks

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Lots of interesting stuff showing up in MacRumours. (New addition to my RSS.)
(I suppose this'll add to the confusion...)

-----
'Spatialize Stereo' Feature in iOS 15 and macOS Monterey Simulates Spatial Audio for Non-Dolby Content
In iOS 15 and macOS Monterey betas, Apple has quietly included a new audio feature called "Spatialize Stereo" that takes any non-Dolby stereo mix and creates a virtual spatial audio environment out of it.
The addition was first discovered by a Reddit user, who had this to say about it:

I assumed that if they ever did this it would warrant at the very least a mention in a Keynote, but unless I completely missed it today I don't think they said anything about it!

The greatest thing about this is that it supports EVERY audio track. Sure I'd pick Atmos Spatial Audio mixes over Spatialized Stereo every time, but for the moment there are only a dozen or so options for Atmos available on Apple Music, so this is such an amazing feature to have!
It's worth reiterating that Spatialize Stereo is different from Spatial Audio, which Apple brought to ‌Apple Music‌ subscribers earlier this week. Spatial Audio with support for Dolby Atmos creates a three-dimensional experience by moving sound all around you.

Spatialize Stereo meanwhile appears to be Apple's attempt to simulate the effect of having sound coming at you from different directions in a virtual environment. It doesn't utilize Dolby Atmos, but on the other hand it works with basically any content, although you do need AirPods Pro or AirPods Max headphones to access it. Here's how it works in the latest ‌iOS 15‌ beta: [...]

What a complete and utter fucking mess. This started with the first use of Spatial Audio. This feature was first demo'd on Airpods Pro within the setting of an iPhone whete all it did, was provide a directional headtracking of the music source. So if you turned yoyr head left of the screen, it would still feel like the music was playing from the direction of the phone (meanining the music was mostly playing on the right of your ear if you looked left of the direction of your phone). This was a real-time effect meant to sumulate speaker listening, and worked pretty amazingly.

Now we have this entire update and a bunch of statements confusing the heck out of everyone. So firstly we have "Spatial Audio" being passed off within Apple Music, totally interchangably with Dolby Atmos. How this relates to lossless isnt clear (like if toy have both enabled, its not clear on first pass what you are actually getting, lossless or the Dolby Atmos mix). The problem also comes now that there is Dolby Atmos Music itself (and its not clear which music was natively an original Atmos mix, but instead of what the majority if not all current music, simply an Atmos remaster). Then you have the issue of why they call it Spatial Audio at all, considering Spatial Audio is originally the headtracking realtime augmented reality tech. Another issue is theyre claiming Atmos Music itself will be coming later that will then have the ability to function properly with the original headtracking functionality of actual Spatial Audio.

And now you finally have this bullshit Spatialize Audio? What is this? One of those virtualization of multichannel things? Actual Spatial Audio as originally used (the headtracking augmentation on an automated level?).

Its alao not clear when the true native Atmos produced music is coming that will function with Spatial Audio headtracking. This is the actual thing one ought to look out for, because it means having proper virtual channels of music, where rotating your head would allow for a realistic soundstage as if you were there, but also able to move your head and get different sound.


This is all befote talking about the mess with what hardware truly supports these new features (Windows iTunes playback? Older Intel based Macs?) And the whole mess with lossless and peoples libraries along with MacOS bit perfect concerns from the native Apple Music app, along with no Apple devices supporting lossless since theyre all godforsaken wireless or just running DAC units without proper Hi-Res support (lossless and Hi Res also need to be demarked).

What the hell are they thinking?
 

abdo123

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Jhify

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Does this statement from Apple really say that you can listen to Atmos on any headphone?

I thought you needed an Atmos decoder built in to a headphone for it to work properly.

Any thoughts?

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212182

View attachment 134710

From what I heard myself its sounds like some sort of gentle binaural processing at least on headphones and still is stereo. And it was way more subtle than I expected since the word "Atmos" led me into thinking it would be a crazy 3D mix completely different from the original. didn't try on other device.
 

DimitryZ

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Lots of interesting stuff showing up in MacRumours. (New addition to my RSS.)
(I suppose this'll add to the confusion...)

-----
'Spatialize Stereo' Feature in iOS 15 and macOS Monterey Simulates Spatial Audio for Non-Dolby Content
In iOS 15 and macOS Monterey betas, Apple has quietly included a new audio feature called "Spatialize Stereo" that takes any non-Dolby stereo mix and creates a virtual spatial audio environment out of it.
The addition was first discovered by a Reddit user, who had this to say about it:

I assumed that if they ever did this it would warrant at the very least a mention in a Keynote, but unless I completely missed it today I don't think they said anything about it!

The greatest thing about this is that it supports EVERY audio track. Sure I'd pick Atmos Spatial Audio mixes over Spatialized Stereo every time, but for the moment there are only a dozen or so options for Atmos available on Apple Music, so this is such an amazing feature to have!
It's worth reiterating that Spatialize Stereo is different from Spatial Audio, which Apple brought to ‌Apple Music‌ subscribers earlier this week. Spatial Audio with support for Dolby Atmos creates a three-dimensional experience by moving sound all around you.

Spatialize Stereo meanwhile appears to be Apple's attempt to simulate the effect of having sound coming at you from different directions in a virtual environment. It doesn't utilize Dolby Atmos, but on the other hand it works with basically any content, although you do need AirPods Pro or AirPods Max headphones to access it. Here's how it works in the latest ‌iOS 15‌ beta: [...]


spatialize-stereo.jpg
If one is at all concerned about fidelity to the master recording, this is a nonostarter.
 
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