strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

[misterdog]

these are not cheap products,

Though neither are they expensive, compared to 5 years ago, they represent excellent value for money.

Take my M400 for example, 5 years ago this quality of sound was not available at any cost.

 

[misterdog]

It's a pity because I'm in the market for a new DAC

As a consumer the choice is yours, Mola Mola, RME, Benchmark are all great DAC's though all cost thousands and not hundreds.

 

[MusicNBeer]

Though neither are they expensive, compared to 5 years ago, they represent excellent value for money.

You're right, 5 years ago, these broken DACs weren't available and 5 years ago, companies would generally acknowledge defects. Things are so much better now!

 

[Jimbob54]

I've purchased my M500 from the official SMSL ebay store in December 2020 (SW 1.7 HW 1.3).

I've written to the email address from the official SMSL website contact us page, linking to this thread and raising my concern that I have a faulty unit. I asked them if they were going to offer a replacement or repair service for my unit.

They quickly answered that they can send me an "upgrade tool", asking for my address and promptly shipping it out. The package is still on the way from China so I don't know what's in it or what the upgrade process entails.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to verify that my unit suffers from the problem, nor will I be able to verify the fix.

Keep us posted. I'd love to see this upgrade tool and what it entails to use it.

 

[misterdog]

You're right, 5 years ago, these broken DACs weren't available

Totally wrong.

My first DAC was an Audiolab M-DAC it was full of Lelon capacitors which all failed.
Audiolab blamed Lelon. Lelon blamed the supplier of the Electrolyte.

But the media and forums loved it.

I have the pre production version built by the designer John Westlake and there are no Lelon Caps in his his design.

£ 600 in 2012 was the RRP yet the M400 kicks it into the dust, so which DAC is expensive and costs a lot of money.

 

[kfscoll]

Totally wrong.

My first DAC was an Audiolab M-DAC it was full of Lelon capacitors which all failed.
Audiolab blamed Lelon. Lelon blamed the supplier of the Electrolyte.

But the media and forums loved it.

I have the pre production version built by the designer John Westlake and there are no Lelon Caps in his his design.

£ 600 in 2012 was the RRP yet the M400 kicks it into the dust, so which DAC is expensive and costs a lot of money.

Again, this completely misses the point. What DACs used to cost back in the day is irrelevant, and whatever the specs of your Audiolab DAC were, it was at least meeting them when the unit was new. The M500 can't even meet its own specs, even when brand new, and I very seriously doubt that the specs of a defective M500 allow it to kick anything into the dust.

I'll admit, the value proposition of a brand-new M500 with a SINAD of 120dB+ is off the charts -- that's why many of us bought them! However, the value proposition of a brand-new M500 with a SINAD of ~70dB is close to nil. We'd have been better off buying one of the many dongle DACs (among many, many other choices for around $100) that do way better than 70dB.

The S.M.S.L. apologists don't really have a leg to stand on. S.M.S.L. themselves use measured specs to tout the superiority of their DACs, yet they omit the measurement that would put their product in a very bad light and would cause the majority of potential customers to run for the hills. No excuses are going to change that, at least not until S.M.S.L. announces that they'll fix the defective M500s in the field.

 

[misterdog]

Again, this completely misses the point. What DACs used to cost back in the day is irrelevant, and whatever the specs of your Audiolab DAC were, it was at least meeting them when the unit was new.

I have the pre production version built by the designer John Westlake and there are no Lelon Caps in his his design.

 

[kfscoll]

OH! Then the experience you had with your Audiolab DAC isn't germane to this discussion at all!

Actually, I did notice that you said the DAC you owned didn't have the faulty DACs, but even the units with the faulty DACs likely measured/performed correctly when it was new. Unlike the M500.

 

[misterdog]

OH! Then the experience you had with your Audiolab DAC isn't germane to this discussion at all!

Actually, I did notice that you said the DAC you owned didn't have the faulty DACs, but even the units with the faulty DACs likely measured/performed correctly when it was new. Unlike the M500.

I have no Idea so I'm out.

People have complained that the Op amps are different on the M500.
The Audiolab I have (mine) has different capacitors to those from the pre-production unit from the designer ( a friend has).

The only spec available at the time was from the manufacturer , and very limited.

Posting on a forum and running a business are completely different things, most who post never have, and never will run a business.
They have a different mindset.

I have both built my own DAC and run my own business for 40 years.

Jumping up and down shouting 'fraud' 'outrage' defective' and then wondering why anyone from SMSL wishes not engage with you shows why.

 

[kfscoll]

Posting on a forum and running a business are completely different things, most who post never have, and never will run a business.
They have a different mindset.

First, posting on a forum and running a business are literally completely different things -- I'm with you 100%. Second, I haven't seen any numbers, but I'll also stipulate that most posters never have and never will run a business. But lastly...business owners and forum posters have "a different mindset?" How so? Is it that forum posters want their defective products fixed, but business owners think it's fine to let those defective products go unrepaired? On second thought, you might be right on that final point too!

In the end, so what? Even if I concede your three points, the fact that most forum posters don't/won't own a business and (might) have different mindsets from business owners doesn't make posters wrong or their complaints illegitimate.

Maybe what you're implying is that if "we" owned businesses then we'd be more willing to forgive the fact that S.M.S.L. hasn't communicated with us. Perhaps, but I doubt it. It's been what, six weeks, since the M500 problem was first identified and yet there's been no communication from S.M.S.L. at all? I doubt even if I owned a business I'd find that acceptable.

Jumping up and down shouting 'fraud' 'outrage' defective' and then wondering why anyone from SMSL wishes not engage with you shows why.

Literally not one single person in this thread has "jumped up and down" nor has anyone "shouted" anything. Actually, the dialogue in this thread has remained pretty reasonable overall - it's far from a lynch mob, even after six-or-so weeks. However, even if it gets more heated than it has been, that won't make those pissed-off folks wrong.

I'm curious...how does blaming the customer for being disappointed over a manufacturing defect and then refusing to engage with them work out for your business?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be satisfied at the six-week point if S.M.S.L. would simply post here that they're aware of the problem and are working on a solution for current owners. It shouldn't take six weeks to post that...unless fixing the problem for current owners isn't part of their plan.

 

[raif71]

• Audibly or not is relative and subjective
• Depending on the equipment chain from the source to your ears
• Depending on the room u have
• Your equipment is only as good as the worst element include your ear
• Depending on if u have an other to compare
• Depending on if u have trained ears
• Be happy if u can not hear the difference

I guess many people also don't hear the the difference between the 99$ DAC like earmen Donald DAC or Earstudio HUD100 Portable DAC and a much more expensive DAC.
But it is not the topic we discuss here. The fact is the M500 and SU9 are defective. Point.

Due to well-known reasons (the recent outbreak of COVID-19 in Guangzhou), my meeting with the SMSL boss had to be postponed. But I can bring a few news:
1. For foreign users, they will provide solutions through distributors.
2. For Chinese users, you can directly contact SMSL
3. I raised serious questions about their software and hardware version management. He accepted it and promised me that they would improve these aspects.
4. They also mentioned that due to the supply of chips and other components during this period, they often feel helpless. But I said that doing a good job of version management, doing a good job of verification, and doing a good job in the revision of promotional materials are things that manufacturers should pay attention to. He accepted.

You take the red pill, you're asking for the units to be fixed but the blue, you are contented with the units as they are, oblivious to the defect (which can be good too). WolfX-700 is the Morpheus acting on behalf of SMSL (the Maker)

 

[Ludovic Alexandre]

Hi,

I own a m500 v2, bought from Amazon (déc. 2020). What can i do now ?

L.

 

[3125b]

You could either wait for any possible solutions from SMSL since there is no immediate problem that needs fixing ASAP, or you could talk to Amazon and try to send it back on the basis that the product has been misrepresented in the marketing material.

 

[Ludovic Alexandre]

Thank you. I called Amazon... It's a refund for me

Ludovic

 

[Freckles.Mcgee]

Thank you. I called Amazon... It's a refund for me

Ludovic

I did the same. There are too many options out there to not act on your own. It's not like the market isn't flooded with great DAC's. To add I didn't return it cause I could hear the problem. I returned for lack of initiative from the company. In short they left a bad taste in my mouth.

You know I think I would have waited if S.M.S.L had been present in this thread.

Also using a middle man implies they don't feel the product has problems, officially. Passing the buck off to Shenzhen Audio is another strange move.

Many have commented on what S.M.S.L have told them but nothing official. This should concern anyone that has their products regardless of you liking the device or if you can hear a problem or not. If an explanation is needed then you can take either the red or blue pill but like the Keymaker says "there's always another way". Or is that "Zuul!". So I'm sitting hear with a different brand happy until a problem pops up with this one

 

[JSmith]

Or is that "Zuul!"

Passing the buck off to Shenzhen Audio

That's for the SU-9 only, SMSL will deal with M500 concerns.



JSmith

 

[Freckles.Mcgee]

That's for the SU-9 only, SMSL will deal with M500 concerns.



JSmith

This is a perfect example of why it's good for a company to make official statements on problem devices publicly. While I have no reason not believe the user that showed the reply from (SMSL), at the end of the day it's just "some" dude.

Also to be very clear Shenzhen Audio said nothing really "Now the current stock is the newest, no need upgrade." You said it in a post, something along the lines, 'still no word on what customers will do with their current devices'. They ghosted you after you asked for more info. I'll stand corrected but feel that was all the info that will be given.

I don't really have much more to say on the topic. I don't have any stake in the game, anymore. The only thing that I would like to see is both S.M.S.L and Shenzhen Audio publicly state what they are doing about expediting a fix and getting it to customers.

One of the many great things from the members is excellent communication, it sounds like you can email SMSL and they will mail you a Jtag for updating the SU-9. Edit:Sounds like users are reporting they have asked for jtag tools and denied. So that's that. You mileage may vary..Sounds like a royal headache!

Good luck everyone with these devices I hope you get some communication.

 

[JSmith]

They ghosted you after you asked for more info.

Yes it appears that way... if they're going to use ASR to promote their products and use the testing here also to promote their products, then the door should swing both ways.



JSmith

 

[Domchuck29]

I bought my M500 (Sw: 1.6, Hw: 1.3) through hifi-express.com half year ago. The dealer's contact mail starts with SMSL_Mandy. Coincidence?

In lack of his/her feedback within this topic, I have contacted this person by mail, making reference to the revelations within this topic, inquiring about the possible solutions.

To my surprise (well...maybe not) the first reaction was: the unit works well, so no warranty case.

I tried to dig further.

So SMSL_Mandy is aware if the issue, pretends that the symptom does not affect the usability of the product, it is not audible, it applies to one channel only, and anyway, amirm's “normal” measurements are showing a SINAD of 117 dB, so this is fine.

If I'm still not happy, I can return it for an exchange.

My inquiry, whether the exchange unit will be corrected, remained unanswered, so far.

PS: I was also confirmed that my unit has the OP amps OPA1612 inside. Something I will definitely check in the near future.

 

[MusicNBeer]

Pathetic support. That's the risk we took. I accept my mistake in buying it.