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Marantz SR8015 Review (Home Theater AVR)

beaRA

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The trouble is that when you have so many channels to amplify, so many cables, so many speakers and so much processing it becomes very expensive and very space consuming to even approach the sound quality of a relatively cheap 2 channel system. As Amir seems to be saying any time he reviews gear like this, it is ok as far as HT stuff is concerned but it can not really compete with good quality 2 channel equipment.

To match what I am getting from my 2 channel system with an HT system I would need so much space and so much expensive equipment that it just does not work for me. I would rather spend my money on other things.

Whatever may be "missing", I find the sound of my 2 channel system immersive and enjoyable when I watch movies. If I really wanted sounds from the side and behind me I would go to a movie theatre. How much do I want it? I want it so much that during the past decade I have been to a movie theatre once. Thats right, one time. So, am I going to spend tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of $ on something I don't really want and consider a gimmick? No.

What has been the single worst thing that has happened to good quality audio reproduction in the home? Home theatre. A lot of people have spent a lot of money on HT gear and where has it got them? A lot of money spent, a lot of clutter and poor sound quality.
This is nonsense. You are not enlightened because you've worked out that 7 quality speakers are more expensive than 2 speakers of the same quality. It's totally fine that you don't choose to spend your money on home theater, but don't act as if you have uncovered some universal audio truth.
 

Chrispy

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sometimes I am skeptic about this, since AVRs packed too many channels into a relatively compact size, as in computers, there's only so much a fan and small heat sinks can do to some monster heat producer. especially for AVRs they have relatively limited airflow, both in the form of air channels in the casing and that they typically are put inside some sort of racks which further limits it's airflow.

They need ventilation to start, plenty of free space around but particularly if used at high output its just good sense to extend its life with a bit of help. ACInfinity has some models that even matches the look of the Marantz :). If you buy an avr, hopefully you understand its limitations, tho....certainly would be nice if you could get a pre-pro/amp combo with separate boxes for a reasonable price compared to an avr, but....or if you simply only have room for one box. For most users an avr is just fine, tho.
 

Matthew J Poes

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The AVR/AVP market needs badly to have more competition to innovate....
Unless Apple wants to jump in, it would be hard. I talked with a few companies that I was hoping would bring an atmos processor to market. They failed to do so repeatedly and the issue is basically a near unfair cost of entry. Basically you have to buy chipsets that can work with the most current codecs. Then you have to develop the product to a near final state. Today that requires at least one competent programmer. If not more. Then you need to submit the product for certification. With companies like Dolby, that means you need to pray they didn’t update the codec since you bought the chips and designed the processor. If they did, at a minimum you need to load the revised codec and update the code to support whatever changes were made. At worst, and this happens a lot, the chipset won’t support the updated codec. You start over. So if you ever wondered why a handful of companies with HT processors suddenly left the market and never returned with an atmos processor, that’s why. The process is so difficult that these small companies can’t compete.

a high end company like Trinnov can because their product is pricy enough to allow more programmers to be involved and because it’s a computer, so the chipset support is a non-issue.

thankfully there is competition in the chipset department and this is good because I believe these new Qualcomm chipsets may be more like computers and this support new codecs and changes to those codecs more readily. I am hoping this might help smaller companies bring platforms to market. But Dolby is just one of many standards that you need certified. Hdmi, DTS, etc are all additional hurdles.

I don’t think it is going to happen, But I’ve joked before that we need a Google or Apple to bring an HT processor to market. They have the engineering chips and programming to bring a state of the art processor to market at a price that is modest by most standards. I don’t see that happening given the lack of market.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Can't disagree with SU's business model. They're still in business doing exactly what they're doing because of these very well thought out business decisions that have marketing focus. I think of it this way: as a product manager, if it costs me the same to switch my 11-channel amp to Class D or add 2 more channels and make it 13-channels (but drop in power) I would go 13-channel all day long because my 13 crappy channels will beat anybody's 11-channel class D AVR on the sales floor if both units cost the same with similar features. Product managers have to add features that can be easily converted into marketing hyperbole that people can understand and get excited about.

It's like 8K is better than 4K - easy to understand so TVs go in this direction instead of wider color gamut - "hey I'm now 90% BT.2020 but that other TV is only 85% coverage." I can only imagine the confusion and frustration in the marketing department.
Yeah there is no marketing advantage. I also got the impression that moving to class D was way more costly. I had specifically asked if there was any plans to introduce Hypex ncore into the top tier receivers. SU would have the ability to make a licensed custom module that was rated at sat 150 watts x 13 and get the cost way down. However they told me their was no plan for such a thing because the cost of such an amplifier would be many times more than the current amps with more limitations. For example the power supply and amp combo I had in mind would have behaved the way NAD’s does, this current limiting and making it so 4ohm output is only slightly more than 8 ohm. Clipping would be more aggressive and so a special limiting circuit is needed to soften the onset of clipping. I was hopeful this product would come to be but they didn’t seem to see the business case.

I am hopeful someone works out a deal with Bruno to produce a 13 channel Purifi amplifier setup and puts it into a receiver. Kind of like Arcam and Audiocontrol did with the Class G modules. You could get a bit more output and quite a bit lower noise and distortion. Of course, given what we have seen, no chance any receiver with that amp is going to come close to what it is capable of. Nearly none of the receivers are amplifier limited in terms of performance metrics like SINAD. Or if they are, it’s only because their is no incentive to improve given the limitations in the rest of the signal path.
 

AndreaT

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Excellent review. I stay away from AVRs. To do 11 channels appropriately you need a specifically designed Home Theater from the ground up. Too expensive for me. Poor digital filter probably creates lots of aliases, to save $ 10 on a $3,300 electronics. Finally, if you run 11 channels, is the max power per channel down to single ended triode levels?
 

B4ICU

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I don't have measurements for you. An ancient test of how hot something is, is whether you can touch it and it is not too hot to keep it there. The Marantz case gets hot enough to not want to hold your hand there on the left side. By definition then the heatsink is hotter, the transistor case hotter still, and its junction even hotter more! :)

Fortunately the digital subsystem is in the back and runs much cooler. Now if you put the whole thing in a closed cabinet, then yes, it can start to cook the rest of it.

My wish is that they would put a mode in where it would run the fans at very low speed at a lower threshold than what they have now. This can be a menu option for people who operate it in less than ideal environment.

This distinguish am amator from a pro.
MIL-STD-2218 when implemented, to design, test and approve, as for a fire control computer for an airborne unit, they need to do a bit more than
"hold your hand on the left side". One part of that test (MIL-STD-2218) is to verify a number of points (24 or more) of the hoter places, that the
actual temp. is as calculated and given by analysis. High Temp. is a problem to be solved. Such test would include BI cycle, Alt. + Temp. test and more.

I remember an early design, where a power component got really hot. The designer claimed, that it is a component that meant to get hot, so it's ok.
when it melt the soldering and felt out of the PCB, it was replaced by a new design, less hot :)

Fan. All units that I've listened to, with a fan, made some noise. A noise that was better without.
Air flow is bringing in dust and dirt. Look at laptops...this require a periodic cleaning maintenance.
After 50 or more years of designs, a better practice would be expected, to get the same cooling results without the noise.
 

Peternz

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Are you saying that my Denon avr-x8500h has a poor sound quality? Amir's measurements and my ears are not supporting your opinion. ;)

No, I am sure it sounds great. The point is that if you took the money you spent on your entire HT rig and spent it on a 2 channel system it would make your Denon whatever sound rather average by comparison. That is all.
People have different priorities and I respect that. All power to you if you need to hear noises behind your head.
 

Chrispy

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This distinguish am amator from a pro.
MIL-STD-2218 when implemented, to design, test and approve, as for a fire control computer for an airborne unit, they need to do a bit more than
"hold your hand on the left side". One part of that test (MIL-STD-2218) is to verify a number of points (24 or more) of the hoter places, that the
actual temp. is as calculated and given by analysis. High Temp. is a problem to be solved. Such test would include BI cycle, Alt. + Temp. test and more.

I remember an early design, where a power component got really hot. The designer claimed, that it is a component that meant to get hot, so it's ok.
when it melt the soldering and felt out of the PCB, it was replaced by a new design, less hot :)

Fan. All units that I've listened to, with a fan, made some noise. A noise that was better without.
Air flow is bringing in dust and dirt. Look at laptops...this require a periodic cleaning maintenance.
After 50 or more years of designs, a better practice would be expected, to get the same cooling results without the noise.

I don't think it's so much that they can't do it better, but it comes down to willingness to put the $ into larger cases/better heatsink (and probably both on the manufacturing and consuming side of things to an extent). Fairly simple to add very low noise fans to help out in a variety of ways....and for guys with dedicated equipment rooms it's even easier. I've used fans and after a few years taken the covers off and did not find excessive dust as a result of the fans.
 

B4ICU

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No, I am sure it sounds great. The point is that if you took the money you spent on your entire HT rig and spent it on a 2 channel system it would make your Denon whatever sound rather average by comparison. That is all.
People have different priorities and I respect that. All power to you if you need to hear noises behind your head.

A myth to lose.
I helped a friend to put together a nice hi-end system.
He use a B&W 802D speakers, powered by a 250W PASS LANS and the 12 Pre. For HT, he use a DENON 43xx HT receiver, that powers the center and rear. When the pre is set to HT input, the same CD can play through an optical link to the DENON and through the pre, or direct, with XLR from the CD (Luxman T.O.T.L.). They sound identical. It was claimed by experts, for a while (forums and dealers!) that a dedicated Hi-End pre would improve sound significantly. Well after spending a lot of money and adding a Pre - it sounds the same.
It is a good idea to use a good receiver's pre as the system pre, for much less $$ and the same quality.
 

B4ICU

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I don't think it's so much that they can't do it better, but it comes down to willingness to put the $ into larger cases/better heatsink (and probably both on the manufacturing and consuming side of things to an extent). Fairly simple to add very low noise fans to help out in a variety of ways....and for guys with dedicated equipment rooms it's even easier. I've used fans and after a few years taken the covers off and did not find excessive dust as a result of the fans.

Fan noise.
Noise level is relative. An old military line phone or radio, could be understood if the sound would be 6dB higher than the noise level. Some AM radios go as good as 35dB. Still a noisy station. LP at best my get 70dB. A cassette without NR is 50dB. They are all noisy related to a CD (over 100dB).
It is always relative to the level of sound played. Play it loud...no problem. Play it low (classics) or between tracks, the noise appears.
Same with a quite room / environment. It is better to have a dedicated room in the basement, than a living room with open windows downtown in a city. Noise is relative. SNR...as we know.
 

Chrispy

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Fan noise.
Noise level is relative. An old military line phone or radio, could be understood if the sound would be 6dB higher than the noise level. Some AM radios go as good as 35dB. Still a noisy station. LP at best my get 70dB. A cassette without NR is 50dB. They are all noisy related to a CD (over 100dB).
It is always relative to the level of sound played. Play it loud...no problem. Play it low (classics) or between tracks, the noise appears.
Same with a quite room / environment. It is better to have a dedicated room in the basement, than a living room with open windows downtown in a city. Noise is relative. SNR...as we know.

I have a few different ones, quieter one in the living room rack than the one out in the workshop. Don't care in the workshop as its easily masked by the music, and even with pretty much only the fan and avr running barely noticeable in the living room even up close let alone at my seat. My noise floor is not extremely low but live in a fairly quiet area. May not be ideal but certainly viable.
 

Peternz

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A myth to lose.
I helped a friend to put together a nice hi-end system.
He use a B&W 802D speakers, powered by a 250W PASS LANS and the 12 Pre. For HT, he use a DENON 43xx HT receiver, that powers the center and rear. When the pre is set to HT input, the same CD can play through an optical link to the DENON and through the pre, or direct, with XLR from the CD (Luxman T.O.T.L.). They sound identical. It was claimed by experts, for a while (forums and dealers!) that a dedicated Hi-End pre would improve sound significantly. Well after spending a lot of money and adding a Pre - it sounds the same.
It is a good idea to use a good receiver's pre as the system pre, for much less $$ and the same quality.

I am not really sure exactly what you are saying here. Essentially it seems like you are claiming that the Denon receiver's DAC sounds the same as the DAC of a Luxman CD player. Am I right?

And while I am here, on the subject of fan noise. It is completely unacceptable in the context of any high quality system. Dead silence should be dead silent. That is a basic and essential requirement. Not hard or expensive to achieve by they way.
 

B4ICU

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I am not really sure exactly what you are saying here. Essentially it seems like you are claiming that the Denon receiver's DAC sounds the same as the DAC of a Luxman CD player. Am I right?

And while I am here, on the subject of fan noise. It is completely unacceptable in the context of any high quality system. Dead silence should be dead silent. That is a basic and essential requirement. Not hard or expensive to achieve by they way.

Dead silence from a fan?
All fans, have a noise figure on Spec. Some are better and some are woese. Dead silence, is below human hearing threshold, from a given distance.
I live in Israel. So your fan for me is dead silent. The 4 missiles that were shot over my living area a couple of weeks ago, when we had the fire up with Gaza, and were intercepted by Iron Dome, with the sirens, was quite loud for me, but dead silent for you. I can say that the boom bass was exciting!
An excitement that I would happily skip.
For some closer audience, with fine hearing, it might be different.
 
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amirm

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After 50 or more years of designs, a better practice would be expected, to get the same cooling results without the noise.
From what you have written, your experience is worthless when it comes to consumer market. Here every penny counts. This is a massive box already with no more room for component separation and cooling. Dolby screwed this market by forcing these companies to stuff twice as many channels in the same boxes. They got an upgrade cycle out of it but they are not in hell trying to deal with extremes of thermal envelop. There are simple mitigations like I talked about that don't cost money. Stuff you talk about is fantasy because it comes from an industry without volume, cost sensitivity or time to market.
 
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amirm

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Dead silence from a fan?
All fans, have a noise figure on Spec. Some are better and some are woese. Dead silence, is below human hearing threshold, from a given distance.
I live in Israel. So your fan for me is dead silent. The 4 missiles that were shot over my living area a couple of weeks ago, when we had the fire up with Gaza, and were intercepted by Iron Dome, with the sirens, was quite loud for me, but dead silent for you. I can say that the boom bass was exciting!
An excitement that I would happily skip.
For some closer audience, with fine hearing, it might be different.
Reply ban issued. Your comment is off-topic, inappropriate and political in nature. Watch it.
 

voodooless

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A switch to Class D would be very costly.

Most definitely. Those AVR amps are made as cheap as possible, which's quite visible by the materials used. They've clearly spent a lot of time optimizing this design for cost vs performance. On the other hand, it's still staggering that with the number of boards manufactured, a decent 2- or even 4-layer board with all (or mostly) surface mount components is not a cheaper option?
 

Propheticus

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Those fans are actually obstructing airflow when they're off.
It would make sense to run them low rpm before reaching a critical temp. Perhaps use the same point where the automatic eco mode switches off (volume at 50 on my Denon). This is plenty loud to mask any low fan hum.
Then again what is a critical temp for amp chips? CPUs for instance have a tjmax of 90 or even over 100c. Too hot to touch happens way before, especially when touching a well (heat)conducting material like metal. Maybe the fans stay off because they're well within their 'budget'.
 
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