Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[oivavoi]

From a user perspective, I don't find the current volume control satisfactory as a complete solution. It always takes some seconds to load when I load the control interface, and that becomes cumbersome if changing volume a lot. It's fine for ego listening if one just puts on an album and keeps the volume, but for playlists, multiple users etc, it doesn't quite cut it IMO.

Right now I get by with it, as it's only me using it and I have one source only (Spotify and Qobuz) where I can fine tune the volume from within their apps. But for any living room setup with multiple sources and users I would recommend using some preamp with a remote, digital out and good digital attenuation. Yamaha WXC-50 with its digital out should work fine for example.

 

[andrew]

From a user perspective, I don't find the current volume control satisfactory as a complete solution. It always takes some seconds to load when I load the control interface, and that becomes cumbersome if changing But for any living room setup with multiple sources and users I would recommend using some preamp with a remote, digital out and good digital attenuation. Yamaha WXC-50 with its digital out should work fine for example.

Agreed but digital preamp seems difficult to find. The Yamaha looks good but doesn’t output AES/EBU so an Spdif to AES might be needed.

 

[svart-hvitt]

From a user perspective, I don't find the current volume control satisfactory as a complete solution. It always takes some seconds to load when I load the control interface, and that becomes cumbersome if changing volume a lot. It's fine for ego listening if one just puts on an album and keeps the volume, but for playlists, multiple users etc, it doesn't quite cut it IMO.

Right now I get by with it, as it's only me using it and I have one source only (Spotify and Qobuz) where I can fine tune the volume from within their apps. But for any living room setup with multiple sources and users I would recommend using some preamp with a remote, digital out and good digital attenuation. Yamaha WXC-50 with its digital out should work fine for example.

Maybe a dedicated thread on digital breakout boxes for «digital» speakers is worth its own thread?

For sure, you do have these threads on other forums. But here, we may be more focussed on engineering, specs and measurements?

Having said that, only a few of the digital breakout boxes have volume attenuation. And the RME is no pure «digital breakout box» because it has an analog section.

 

[oivavoi]

I second that a dedicated thread on digital breakout boxes may be a good idea. There are not too many of those boxes! The Yamaha one was the cheapeast and most functional one I could find. Still haven't purchased it myself though. It had measurements which were beyond stellar in the test by the Swedish Audio Society. And the digital attenuation works in the digital domain (48 bits), and also controls the digital out. Seems to me like a more home user friendly option than the RME, since it also has options for streaming, airplay (thus Roon) and bluetooth. And cheaper than the RME to boot.

But yeah, no AES/EBU out, @andrew . For my sonos connect that I presently have I use toslink out and this cheap little converter box, which seems to work perfectly: https://www.studiospares.com/Studio...07-Toslink-SPDIF--AESEBU-Converter_465760.htm
(haven't noticed any degradation of the deep and rich chocolatey layers in the music, to say it in Audophilese)
HOSA also makes other AES converters which are somewhat more expensive. The one from studiospares only ships from the UK and only accepts toslink, not coaxial.

It can be mentioned that D&D also supplied an AES/EBU connector in the box. As far as I understood it from my dealer, this connector can be wired directly onto a digital cable. I don't know if that would be a SPDIF cable? I know that passive conversion from SPDIF (coaxial) to AES/EBU is possible, but I don't know if this terminator/connector does that, or if it only works with an AES/EBU cable. Perhaps someone from Dutch & Dutch can chime in on this.

 

[Dialectic]

It's also possible to use a second software volume control only with the 8Cs, as I do with the BACCH software. I keep the 8Cs' volume control at -15 dB.

 

[Purité Audio]

I second that a dedicated thread on digital breakout boxes may be a good idea. There are not too many of those boxes! The Yamaha one was the cheapeast and most functional one I could find. Still haven't purchased it myself though. It had measurements which were beyond stellar in the test by the Swedish Audio Society. And the digital attenuation works in the digital domain (48 bits), and also controls the digital out. Seems to me like a more home user friendly option than the RME, since it also has options for streaming, airplay (thus Roon) and bluetooth. And cheaper than the RME to boot.

But yeah, no AES/EBU out, @andrew . For my sonos connect that I presently have I use toslink out and this cheap little converter box, which seems to work perfectly: https://www.studiospares.com/Studio...07-Toslink-SPDIF--AESEBU-Converter_465760.htm
(haven't noticed any degradation of the deep and rich chocolatey layers in the music, to say it in Audophilese)
HOSA also makes other AES converters which are somewhat more expensive. The one from studiospares only ships from the UK and only accepts toslink, not coaxial.

It can be mentioned that D&D also supplied an AES/EBU connector in the box. As far as I understood it from my dealer, this connector can be wired directly onto a digital cable. I don't know if that would be a SPDIF cable? I know that passive conversion from SPDIF (coaxial) to AES/EBU is possible, but I don't know if this terminator/connector does that, or if it only works with an AES/EBU cable. Perhaps someone from Dutch & Dutch can chime in on this.

The ‘connector’ is used with a digital input is site in the spare’ through’ socket, it is just a 110ohm resistor.
The RME ADi pros attenuates the digital and analogue output m it ‘auto ‘senses inputs, I have also used a Weiss INT Interface that is good but expensive.
Keith

 

[fredoamigo]

I think a very complete product like the tascam UH-7000 could be very well suited... but too bad it's not a remote control.

http://tascam.com/product/uh-7000/

 

[andrew]

Maybe a dedicated thread on digital breakout boxes for «digital» speakers is worth its own thread?

For sure, you do have these threads on other forums. But here, we may be more focussed on engineering, specs and measurements?

Having said that, only a few of the digital breakout boxes have volume attenuation. And the RME is no pure «digital breakout box» because it has an analog section.

Started Pre-Amp for active digital / analogue speakers in this section (General Audio)

 

[andrew]

When I switch the speakers into Streaming mode, Roon on my Windows box does not discover them. My networking hardware mostly sucks, so I wouldn't assume that the speakers are to blame.

I seem to recall that enabling Roon remains in a yet to be delivered upgrade. It'd be interesting to know how volume control will work once Roon is enabled as I guess that there is the potential for volume control to be executed from the Roon app. That would make for an excellent single source set-up.

Anyone know if the the on-board volume control in the digital domain? The reason for asking is that I'm a bit worried about late night listening where one might be -30 or 40dB (in which case perhaps it'd be better to use an off-board analogue volume control and accept the A/D conversion).

 

[Dialectic]

I seem to recall that enabling Roon remains in a yet to be delivered upgrade. It'd be interesting to know how volume control will work once Roon is enabled as I guess that there is the potential for volume control to be executed from the Roon app. That would make for an excellent single source set-up.

Anyone know if the the on-board volume control in the digital domain? The reason for asking is that I'm a bit worried about late night listening where one might be -30 or 40dB (in which case perhaps it'd be better to use an off-board analogue volume control and accept the A/D conversion).

On-board volume is in the digital domain, yes. Does the digital volume control add more distortion than a resistor-ladder volume control turned down to -30 or -40 dB, even if that much attenuation causes some loss of resolution below 24-bit? Probably not.

I believe Roon streaming is working in the current firmware update. Because my Roon trial expired and because Roon's metadata for classical music is terrible, I don't use Roon and cannot confirm. Perhaps @oivavoi knows.

 

[RayDunzl]

On-board volume is in the digital domain, yes. Does the digital volume control add more distortion than a resistor-ladder volume control turned down to -30 or -40 dB, even if that much attenuation causes some loss of resolution below 24-bit?

Experiment:

REW Sweep tone, Digital odBfs , attenuation at preamp (unspecified resistor ladder attenuation), vs Sweep Tone with 40dB attenuation at miniDSP OpenDRC-DI and no attenuation at preamp.

In Room SPL and THD:



Conclusion: Inconclusive.

 

[Dialectic]

Experiment:

REW Sweep tone, Digital odBfs , attenuation at preamp (unspecified resistor ladder attenuation), vs Sweep Tone with 40dB attenuation at miniDSP OpenDRC-DI and no attenuation at preamp.

In Room SPL and THD:

View attachment 12794 View attachment 12795

Conclusion: Inconclusive.

With my Mytek 192-DSD, which has both analog and digital volume controls, the digital volume control is audibly more transparent, and the manual tells the user that it measures better.

But perhaps I over-generalized.

 

[RayDunzl]

But perhaps I over-generalized.

No problem, just seemed like something to look at here, which I do from time to time.

 

[oivavoi]

On-board volume is in the digital domain, yes. Does the digital volume control add more distortion than a resistor-ladder volume control turned down to -30 or -40 dB, even if that much attenuation causes some loss of resolution below 24-bit? Probably not.

I believe Roon streaming is working in the current firmware update. Because my Roon trial expired and because Roon's metadata for classical music is terrible, I don't use Roon and cannot confirm. Perhaps @oivavoi knows.

No, Roon has yet to be implemented. As a pure guess I would assume that they will prioritize this over other annonced features such as the subwoofer equalization, because they have been touting Roon as a seling point publicly.

On the volume control in Roon, @andrew : this works very well. Smooth and intuitive, and uses 64-bit resolution. Concerning metadata on classical music: this is a concern with all streaming apps and formats IME, which are very oriented towards the "artist and album" thing in popular music. But I would say that Roon is the best of the bunch. I only started using it recently, but my sense is that they have improved their handling of classical metadata in their recent upgrades. For me, the current software is at least acceptable when it comes to classical music.

 

[Batmanpa]

Regarding the Roon ready, I am hoping 8C could accept data via Ethernet in the coming future, and also use Ethernet connection between the 2 speakers, instead of only AES nowadays.
With the Ethernet connection, this is much more convenient to feed in data from a network, i.e. router, switch, and we could make use of app from a tablet to control the speakers and surf music.

 

[Dialectic]

Good point. After my review of the Kii Three, several people asked me if I was going to buy a pair (or five). I said that I am very tempted but that it is too great an investment for me to commit to a complex and proprietary device offered by a new and small company.

A blog post gets at this very issue in cars:

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/05/software-eating-world-tesla-edition.html

The problem of increasing monopoly power in software-driven durable goods is very real. I hope D&D is able to stick around for a while.

 

[Frank Dernie]

A blog post gets at this very issue in cars:

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/05/software-eating-world-tesla-edition.html

The problem of increasing monopoly power in software-driven durable goods is very real. I hope D&D is able to stick around for a while.

This is my concern too. The Devialet Phantom is sold almost as a disposable whereas I have amps speakers and DACs going back decades which still work fine and can be repaired if they stop.
I have also gone back to mainly CDs and LPs because I am irritated by computer audio so the D&D much as I love the concept does not look in any way suitable for me.

 

[Purité Audio]

I suppose there is always a risk with a new product, but the 8Cs are superb loudspeakers and I almost certain I shall only live once.
Keith

 

[Wombat]

I suppose there is always a risk with a new product, but the 8Cs are superb loudspeakers and I almost certain I shall only live once.
Keith

Until the next best thing? The endless-quest for some. That's OK.

Because I will only live once I try to spread my interests more widely for a broader experience. We all have different priorities. That's OK, too.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes for me personally I have always been interested in the best possible reproduction.
Keith