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Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

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pozz

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Suddenly, Amir and others are saying that’s not good enough. Now it’s about it’s about running the amps through an ADC and seeing if other people can tell the difference between the resulting files. Why? That’s clearly not relevant to whether Golden could or couldn’t differentiate between amps.
It's about the difficulty of the procedure.

  1. A switcher box can introduce it's own flaws, particularly crosstalk. Manually plugging and unplugging gear can produce tells. Having a friend do the switching instead of a third party introduces the possibility of collusion. Correctly measuring levels and so forth is difficult.
  2. Using a good ADC to capture the output of DACs or headphone amps allows the files to be posted publicly. They can be examined and analyzed. The main criticism here is that the additional conversions would void the comparison or comparing the files is not equivalent to comparing headphone/amp combinations because of reactive differences.
1 requires some level of trust and skill. 2 obviates the trust issue but potentially isn't a fair comparison.

So far it's a stalemate with a lot of detours.
 

pozz

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@Andysu I find some of your stuff funny, but please leave it out of this thread. Hard enough to stay on topic as it is.
 

eddantes

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Not sure what meme applies here:

1622817018776.png


Or

1622817037183.png
 

symphara

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Suddenly, Amir and others are saying that’s not good enough. Now it’s about it’s about running the amps through an ADC and seeing if other people can tell the difference between the resulting files. Why? That’s clearly not relevant to whether Golden could or couldn’t differentiate between amps.
That's not my understanding of their position.

Golden claimed certain characteristics about a device. Amir challenged him to detect this, in a test.

Golden wants a test that merely tells that he can detect the difference between that device and another one.

That will simply not do. Such a test wouldn't prove his point, and Amir is right about it.

Imagine that I claimed that bakery A produces a French baguette with a soggy crust and grainy interior, vs the bakery B's baguette which has a nice crust and a fluffy interior.

Amir's point is that, when presented with slices of these products (without me knowing from which specific bakery they come from), I should make good on my claim and identify the origin correctly. That should be easy, since I made the claim about quality.

On Golden's test I would merely have to identify that they come from different bakeries. It's just not the same thing.
 

max1236

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Why not just have him do an ABx then. I think as long as all the gear is agreed upon, and setup on a live stream no one will object. I think GO will go on with the test anyways. Whether it's good enough for Amir he can decide himself.
 

hardisj

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markus

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That's not my understanding of their position.

Golden claimed certain characteristics about a device. Amir challenged him to detect this, in a test.

Golden wants a test that merely tells that he can detect the difference between that device and another one.

That will simply not do. Such a test wouldn't prove his point, and Amir is right about it.

Imagine that I claimed that bakery A produces a French baguette with a soggy crust and grainy interior, vs the bakery B's baguette which has a nice crust and a fluffy interior.

Amir's point is that, when presented with slices of these products (without me knowing from which specific bakery they come from), I should make good on my claim and identify the origin correctly. That should be easy, since I made the claim about quality.

On Golden's test I would merely have to identify that they come from different bakeries. It's just not the same thing.

But isn't Amir's objection that "soggy, grainy, nice and fluffy" is merely a subjective characterisation whereas he has objectively determined there is no difference between baguette from bakery A and baguette from bakery B?
 

pozz

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Inner Space

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Man, I'm not gonna read that crap. There's enough drama in this thread alone. I don't need to find another rabbit hole. ;)

It's fascinating on a human level. This site and that one (and others) seem to have several members in common. They tend to modulate how they present themselves depending on where they are. Maybe a modern iteration of "people pleasing" ... could call it "forum pleasing".
 

garbulky

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That's not my understanding of their position.

Golden claimed certain characteristics about a device. Amir challenged him to detect this, in a test.

Golden wants a test that merely tells that he can detect the difference between that device and another one.

That will simply not do. Such a test wouldn't prove his point, and Amir is right about it.

Imagine that I claimed that bakery A produces a French baguette with a soggy crust and grainy interior, vs the bakery B's baguette which has a nice crust and a fluffy interior.

Amir's point is that, when presented with slices of these products (without me knowing from which specific bakery they come from), I should make good on my claim and identify the origin correctly. That should be easy, since I made the claim about quality.

On Golden's test I would merely have to identify that they come from different bakeries. It's just not the same thing.

A DBX shows that a person can tell a difference. Not if something sounds better or even if something has the qualities they claim. That is up to the person's subjective impressions. Which is why a DBX can't be shown to show that something indeed sounds better .... to OTHER people. One can do a DBT and prove to themselves that they are able to select the thing that sounds better/more realistic for THEMSELVES etc. But to prove it to others would only prove that one can hear a difference.
There is a way to show that quality can be correlated to differences. But here one would have to have the same condition and device and purposefulyl interject the change that we wish for somebody to hear. Yet we can't PROVE that it indeed sounds a certain way to the person as that is in their minds.
 

pozz

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A DBX shows that a person can tell a difference. Not if something sounds better or even if something has the qualities they claim. That is up to the person's subjective impressions. Which is why a DBX can't be shown to show that something indeed sounds better .... to OTHER people. One can do a DBT and prove to themselves that they are able to select the thing that sounds better/more realistic for THEMSELVES etc. But to prove it to others would only prove that one can hear a difference.
There is a way to show that quality can be correlated to differences. But here one would have to have the same condition and device and purposefulyl interject the change that we wish for somebody to hear. Yet we can't PROVE that it indeed sounds a certain way to the person as that is in their minds.
Say you were testing 2 devices in ABX. The test asks you to rank their qualities and your preference on a 1-10 scale instead of asking if what you hear is same/different.

If you are consistent in your rankings, you will be able to determine whether or not you can hear a difference, if there are assignable qualities, and if you're able to produce a preference.
 

hardisj

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It's fascinating on a human level. This site and that one (and others) seem to have several members in common. They tend to modulate how they present themselves depending on where they are. Maybe a modern iteration of "people pleasing" ... could call it "forum pleasing".

and this is certainly OT but..

This is exactly why I like the YouTube aspect of doing reviews in person. Actually in person, not a modulated voice or no-face. It puts a face to a name. A personality to a screenname. It gets out of that "keyboard commando" and - even though you can still say what you want - it takes away the anonymity. You are more responsible for what you say and it makes it less easy to run off at the mouth. Lot of tough-talking internet folks out there. The real ones don't hide. Right or wrong... at least you know who they are and what they are about up front without the need to go dig through pages of tough talk.
 

Propheticus

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Okay, so it turns out this thread did still have at least one funny joke left in it.

Still, if we're interested in this test working, I think we should dial back on the psychoanalysis of those involved - that frankly seems to me like throwing fuel on the fire.

I think that is spot on. Maybe first start with looking at yourself (why does this trigger me?), lest in a case of inception we all become either victims (ashamed, unable to fix this) or persecutors (blaming / air of I'm above this...yet participating nonetheless).

To be honest this thread disappoints me (there I go, victim). Thought I had found a forum relatively free of trolls, popcorn eaters and people throwing fuel on fires because they like to see the world burn.
 

JSmith

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Those are quotes from purr1n, correct?
Yep.
Not strictly relevant.
Was just an example for @hardisj of what has been going on, but you're right it's not related to this strictly.
But isn't Amir's objection that "soggy, grainy, nice and fluffy" is merely a subjective characterisation whereas he has objectively determined there is no difference between baguette from bakery A and baguette from bakery B?
This analogy is starting to fail... and it's making me hungry.



JSmith
 

bboris77

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It's fascinating on a human level. This site and that one (and others) seem to have several members in common. They tend to modulate how they present themselves depending on where they are. Maybe a modern iteration of "people pleasing" ... could call it "forum pleasing".

I am "guilty" of being one of these cross-members whose point of view seems to shift from time to time, so I feel I need to provide my view on this subject. For me, it is not about pleasing people because I actually tend to piss people off when my position shifts on any given subject. The reason for these changes in my views is simply evolution in my understanding of the situation and people involved. Sure, sometimes I am guilty of assuming too much about people (mainly Amir) based on my instinctive perception of a situation or their own actions, but I am fully willing to admit my mistakes when I acquire more information about the issue or a person.

There is nothing that prevents a person from changing their mind on a subject when presented with more evidence. You have to put people's comments in a historical context of what was known about a subject matter at a given point in time. I refuse to be in any inflexible camp (i.e. objectivist/subjectivist) which tends to put a set of blinders on and bulldozes over anyone who dares to oppose their worldview. Personally, as the time goes on, I tend to be more on the objectivist side, without ruling out a possibility of further advances in how we measure audio reproduction.
 

solderdude

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On Golden's test I would merely have to identify that they come from different bakeries. It's just not the same thing.

That's a good analogy but when it is impossible to tell the baguettes apart when you can look, feel, smell and taste them what's the point of exploring the origin further ?
 

hardisj

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I am "guilty" of being one of these cross-members whose point of view seems to shift from time to time, so I feel I need to provide my view on this subject. For me, it is not about pleasing people because I actually tend to piss people off when my position shifts on any given subject. The reason for these changes in my views is simply evolution in my understanding of the situation and people involved. Sure, sometimes I am guilty of assuming too much about people (mainly Amir) based on my instinctive perception of a situation or their own actions, but I am fully willing to admit my mistakes when I acquire more information about the issue or a person.

There is nothing that prevents a person from changing their mind on a subject when presented with more evidence. You have to put people's comments in a historical context of what was known about a subject matter at a given point in time. I refuse to be in any inflexible camp (i.e. objectivist/subjectivist) which tends to put a set of blinders on and bulldozes over anyone who dares to oppose their worldview. Personally, as the time goes on, I tend to be more on the objectivist side, without ruling out a possibility of further advances in how we measure audio reproduction.

I get that.

At first this thread came off as just plain stupid. A you-know-what measuring competition Amir started because it seemed like GS was getting attention with his MQA video and Amir didn't like it (judging by the MQA thread). That's honestly what I saw going on and I thought it was just plain silly and incredibly passive-aggressive.

Then I saw where Amir posted what GS was saying elsewhere wrt ASR and how GS can hear all these magical things and the objective data doesn't tell the story, etc, etc. That flipped my POV toward "now I get it, Amir is annoyed as f*ck by this guy and is telling him to put up or shut up".

Still, I do think that this thread should have been addressed with that specific point in mind. Not guised as a "scientific study" of sorts, which we all saw wasn't really the case.


That is why I made the suggestion about the two just doing a live debate and the dropping it at that. Let them hash out their differences, talk about what they believe and let them make counterpoints with science-based facts. Then, afterward, be done with it and walk away.
 

Thomas_A

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I don't know why there is a lengthy debate about this.

There are two ways of doing it, digital using ABX or using a controller on site.

Double-blind test of two CD players reveals audible difference





John Stalberg, Thomas Akerlund, and Mikael ?





Background





The purpose of this test was to investigate whether modern CD players sound different or not. This is a controversial issue as there is little or no scientific evidence that CD players are audibly different. A previous test have shown that the first CD player imported to the US, the 14-bit Phillips CD player CD100, was audibly different to a Sony player (www.oakland.edu/˜djcarlst/abx_cd.htm). The score was 67% correct guesses with a p lower than 0.005. Other modern CD players did not show any audible difference. These results were published in PSACS Sound Bytes Vol. 7 No. 1, 1996. The Swedish Acoustic Society has previously been able to distinguish CD players in blind tests, but the result has not been confirmed in any double blind test. The result from the present study showed that there indeed is a significant and audible difference between two specific CD players. Thus, the notion that all CD players sound the same is not correct. Another conclusion is that changing CD players in an upgrade path indeed may have a purpose – i.e. to get a better sounding system. However, there is little information of which CD players that sound poor and which sound good, and for the consumer to know this, an extensive testing must be performed.








Material and methods





Reference system. The reference system consisted of Sentec SC9 pre-amplifier, four NAD 208 Power amplifers (2 x 250 Watt/8 Ohm for each amplifier), INO Audio xx speakers and 4 INO Audio yy subs, and Sentec DiAna DA converter. Each item has been selected as be the most transparent for music and test signals (i.e. uncoloured sound) using a “before-after” test (i.e. signals pass trough without any change of the pattern/waveform). The listening room is damped for early reflections, and reproduce a frequency response of 20-20000 Hz within 0.5 dB limits (at listening position). Max SPL is around 130 dB at 15 Hz (?).





Test objects. A Denon xx and a Harman Kardon HD7600 CD player with variable analogue output were chosen as test objects. The output level of the Harman Kardon CDP was adjusted to match the Denon at a dB level of ±0.01 dB using a oscilloscope and a xx Hz test signal, as measured from the output of the pre-amplifier.





Listeners. Thomas Akerlund (1), Mikael xx (2) John Stalberg (3). Both persons 2 and 3 are musicians and audio recording specialists and are very well trained listeners, and familiar with both the reference system and the test objects. Person 1 has limited or no previous experience of the reference system or the test objects.





Test procedure. All listeners were given a training session for about one to two hours. First, the Harman Kardon CD player was auditioned and compared against the reference DA converter and its character was noted. After this a training session with the two different test objects were chosen. Starting the DBT, one person (3) tossed a coin ten times and wrote down the order on a paper, while the other two persons were in another room. He made all the switches and was not visible or made any noise to the test persons during the entire test. The CD players and the back of the preamplifier were hidden with blankets. The test signal was two identical (verified by data analysis) copies of a drum session. Each of these was set on repeat on the CD players, with exact matching of length. For each test, one person made the switching and the other person made the listening test. The switcher started to switch from CD (neutral) to either Aux 2 (CD player X) or Aux 3 (CD player Y), without saying anything to the listener. Then the test was continued with 5-10 seconds of listening at each input with about 1 second delay at neutral, i.e. a test order of e.g. X - neutral – Y – netrual – X etc. Since the sound of the CD players were not synchronised the length of the listening period varied randomly during the test. This procedure did cause some confusion, since it was not always obvious if a switching had occurred and made it more difficult for the listener. Nevertheless, when the listener decided which sound that related to which test object, the switcher noted which input he had chosen, and the test result was written down. One person (1) conducted six listening trials, and there was a switch between these two for the remaining four test, i.e. person 1 became the switcher and person 2 the listener. After ten trials the result was compared to the written scheme as made from person 3. After this, a second listening test with three trials was conducted with person 3 as listener, 1 as switcher and 2 as the coin flipper.





Results and discussion





Training session. In the initial training session all listeners concluded that the Harman Kardon CD player was very similar to the DiAna reference DA converter. A somewhat higher impact in drums and a little brighter sound than the DiAna was noted. When the Denon CD player was tested against the Harman Kardon, it became evident that the Denon CD player had a brighter sound as noted on drums and background noise. Test person 1 was not as familiar with critical listening as person 2 and 3, and had no previous listening experience with the test objects, although he also noted a difference when these were tested. The listening session was ended with single blind guesses, in which most cases were correct (≈80%).





DBT session. The final result from the DBT tests was that 11 out 13 trials were correct. This corresponds to 85% (p=0.01) correct choices, which is significantly different from random choice. The two faulty choices came from person 1, who was not as familiar with the system and had less training than the other two. Also, person 1 suffered from some listening fatigue after the training session, and may have scored better with a different outlay of the experiment. For example, listener 1 could have borrowed and listened to the CD players for a while, before the test was done. The conclusion was however, that there is a 99% probability that the CD players were audibly different.
 
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