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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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DimitryZ

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Also worth noting I did try submitting a file which was just a 1khz -3dBFS sine, but I received a rejection notice saying "The MQA encoder was unable to encode the file"
For a meaningful test, you should have done some research, understood the system's design intent, talked to experts and formulated a valid test objective, test strategy and execution methodology.

Testing is hard. That's why in the industry we hold TRRs (Test Readiness Reviews) - to make sure all the i's are dotted and all t's crossed.

What you did is more like an informal engineering confidence test that was badly setup and produced meaningless results. We don't publish those - we learn from our mistskes and do better next time.
 
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GoldenOne

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Indeed, I will donate $1000 to Goldeneye's favorite charity if he can prove any of those observations if he can do so blind and in controlled testing.
I'm happy to take you up on this.

Let's say the Holo May vs topping e30 if that suits? Both measure >110dB sinad with no audible concerns raised on your review for the e30, will set the may to OS so that there's no inherent FR difference.

I'll volume match to 0.01dB etc.
Any other conditions or things you'd like me to put in place let me know and I'll accommodate them if possible. How many runs, any other checks, or detail the full procedure for the test if you'd like.
 

DimitryZ

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I'm happy to take you up on this.

Let's say the Holo May vs topping e30 if that suits? Both measure >110dB sinad with no audible concerns raised on your review for the e30, will set the may to OS so that there's no inherent FR difference.

I'll volume match to 0.01dB etc.
Any other conditions or things you'd like me to put in place let me know and I'll accommodate them if possible. How many runs, any other checks, or detail the full procedure for the test if you'd like.
Given your recent "professional" history, perhaps actual witnesses will be required.
 

earlevel

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There is no MQA claim regarding encoding square waves, white noise to 44 kHz, etc. Its claims are all about music encoding.

I think you are referring to making non-listening judgements to the responses of the system to such signals?

Certainly any such system should handle any audio signal. I've been building and playing with synths for 50 years, these things are in music, even at times naked. We can't even assume a "musical" balance of frequencies. This band and song is available on Apple Music, just as a quick-found example, but I could come up with pure white noise too. The only thing I expect is that it would sound pretty much the same on anyone's encoding, I don't care so much how it looks on analyzers, especially in frequency bands I can't hear...granted, it would be hard for me to tell if the below is properly encoding, but there is an actual noise music genre, and I know people who are actually very much into it so I guess they would be able to tell if one of their favorites sounded right ;) (be sure to turn your sound down...)

 

amirm

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I'm happy to take you up on this.

Let's say the Holo May vs topping e30 if that suits? Both measure >110dB sinad with no audible concerns raised on your review for the e30, will set the may to OS so that there's no inherent FR difference.

I'll volume match to 0.01dB etc.
Any other conditions or things you'd like me to put in place let me know and I'll accommodate them if possible. How many runs, any other checks, or detail the full procedure for the test if you'd like.
I don't have a Holo May nor have I tested it. Let's stay with the Magnius that I do have and can confirm your findings. I will create a new thread.
 

DimitryZ

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I think you are referring to making non-listening judgements to the responses of the system to such signals?

Certainly any such system should handle any audio signal. I've been building and playing with synths for 50 years, these things are in music, even at times naked. We can't even assume a "musical" balance of frequencies. This band and song is available on Apple Music, just as a quick-found example, but I could come up with pure white noise too. The only thing I expect is that it would sound pretty much the same on anyone's encoding, I don't care so much how it looks on analyzers, especially in frequency bands I can't hear...granted, it would be hard for me to tell if the below is properly encoding, but there is an actual noise music genre, and I know people who are actually very much into it so I guess they would be able to tell if one of their favorites sounded right ;) (be sure to turn your sound down...)

Two points.

All music falls into the same statistical envelope. People naturally assume that strange music (to their ears) like "noise" genre or beautiful gamelan must be different. It is not. The common denominator is it's all made by beings with identical listening systems - human ears.

MQA should be able to encode standard test signals, provided they are in the MQA encoding music envelope (people please learn this). Bob Stuart published these results recently and they are essentially SOTA.

Amir's MQA encoding project should include in-band test signals. Donate to this, once the project firms up.
 
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GoldenOne

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I don't have a Holo May nor have I tested it. Let's stay with the Magnius that I do have and can confirm your findings. I will create a new thread.
I don't have a magnius anymore It was just here for the review
 

bboris77

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I am looking forward to this blind test not because I want someone to "win", but to genuinely see if there may be something more in it than placebo and our minds playing tricks on us. I know it is just one test, but it is at least a start.

If @GoldenOne is able to pick out the op-amp based amplifier from discrete (assuming this is the setup) in a statistically meaningful way, the next logical step would be for enthusiasts with an APx555 to try to figure out what else needs to be measured that would account for these observed differences.

P.S. May I suggest Magni 3+ or Asgard 3 vs Heresy/Atom/THX789?
 
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GoldenOne

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I am looking forward to this blind test not because I want someone to "win", but to genuinely see if there may be something more in it than placebo and our minds playing tricks on us. I know it is just one test, but it is at least a start.

If @GoldenOne is able to pick out the op-amp based amplifier from discrete (assuming this is the setup) in a statistically meaningful way, the next logical step would be for enthusiasts with an APx555 to try to figure out what else needs to be measured that would account for these observed differences.

P.S. May I suggest Magni 3+ or Asgard 3 vs Heresy/Atom/THX789?
Its a little trickier to do an amp blind test because I don't have a switcher that would go after the amp. So I'd need someone to manually swap the amp and even something like the sound of plugging In could potentially give away which amp is being used.

Whereas dac a switchbox or preamp can be used so its a fair bit easier.
 

bboris77

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Its a little trickier to do an amp blind test because I don't have a switcher that would go after the amp. So I'd need someone to manually swap the amp and even something like the sound of plugging In could potentially give away which amp is being used.

Whereas dac a switchbox or preamp can be used so its a fair bit easier.
You are a brave man. There are such small differences between how DACs sound in my opinion. But then, I am not a trained listener.
 

Raindog123

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My VP is excellent. She is the best software engineer anyone has seen East side. She also doesn't post her employment offers on forums.

I was talking about you

Happy for her. As a cleared Raytheon employe I am sure she does not post her real name and place of employment on international forums (fora?) either… As for ‘I was talking about you’, yes your ad-hominem attacks are well noticed by now. Finally, employment at Harman Kardon, within a ‘credentials’ discussion, is like… how to make it clear to the likes of yours… like you getting a decent offer from Lockheed (Or BAE, if you’re in the UK.) :)

But I find @amirm - @GoldenOne ’s discussion much more interesting than ours, so suggest we pay attention there… But by all means have one more jab at me, if you must.
 
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GoldenOne

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what do you have then?
Here at the moment holo may, topping e30, phasure nos1a (which isn't suitable for all sorts of reasons, that thing is a weird product), chord mojo, modi multibit, ares 2.
Though stuff is coming in/going out somewhat frequently.

Holo may was tested by l7audiolab / @WolfX-700 though. As was the serene. Not sure if that'd suit.

Ill see if I can get a friend of mine to make an amp switcher as he did one recently for someone else.
 

levimax

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It feels like it wouldn't be easy to set up blind tests between the Magnius and an amp that didn't test as well (the Asgard 3?) and see which one people thought sounded better.
Before a preference people need to prove they can reliably tell the amps apart blind and level matched which is a lot harder than you would think. I would recomend you try it your self... You might be surprized.
 

JohnYang1997

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Ah OK I'm mistaken
(the smsl/topping site was ofc run by smsl/topping though)
No.
Stop with the crap.
You don't care for a slight second in mind to check for the fact but a instinct.
It's this characteristic of you made you this deep in this shit. So stop it, get some help.
 
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amirm

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I think you are referring to making non-listening judgements to the responses of the system to such signals?

Certainly any such system should handle any audio signal. I've been building and playing with synths for 50 years, these things are in music, even at times naked. We can't even assume a "musical" balance of frequencies. This band and song is available on Apple Music, just as a quick-found example, but I could come up with pure white noise too. The only thing I expect is that it would sound pretty much the same on anyone's encoding, I don't care so much how it looks on analyzers, especially in frequency bands I can't hear...granted, it would be hard for me to tell if the below is properly encoding, but there is an actual noise music genre, and I know people who are actually very much into it so I guess they would be able to tell if one of their favorites sounded right ;) (be sure to turn your sound down...)

You partially answer your own question there. There are two misunderstandings here:

1. That the encoder needs to handle all cases perfectly. It does not. The lossy codec that was used to encode that video likely went nuts and distorted that clip. But either that doesn't matter in this kind of content. Or falls in the category of, "yes, it doesn't produce good quality in 0.0001% of the clips. So what?"

A true mathematical lossless codec could fail on this as well and just spit out the source instead of compressing anything. That would be a failure to do its job but people don't notice.

OP wants such pathelogical clips to produce correct output. That is not in the cards for any compression algorithm.

2. That something that sounds noise like to a human, must be the same as test signals used by OP. You just can't make such a determination by ear or intuition. You need to measure. I just did that with the clip you post in youtube. I recorded about a minute of it and did a full analysis of it:

Dreamcrusher - Codeine Eyes spectrum full.png


We see that the spectrum nicely drops off as frequencies increase -- precisely what MQA algorithm is counting on. We have 50 dB reduction in level at 20 kHz that we have at lowest frequency.

The start of this clip is far more noise like so let's analyze that:

Dreamcrusher - Codeine Eyes 10 seconds.png


Again, the same trend. There is no equal spectrum and certainly not one that extends beyond 20 kHz. I don't care what you synthesized I am pretty sure you did not use one that filled the ultrasonics with same level.

Remember, if you had flat response, you would blow up your tweeter and your ears instantly at any decent listening level! So if you could listen to it with the little tweeters in your speakers relative to the massive size of the woofer, you were not generating "pure white noise." If you do create such content, it will not be playable or listenable. What MQA then does to it is not material. It could pump a bunch of noise of its own and you wouldn't know the difference.

Conclusion
It is OK to have corner cases where an encoder can't handle the content. This is the case with just about any compression algorithm. Pathological cases are called that for a reason. If a test signal falls in this category, then it cannot be used to judge the quality of the codec if it doesn't represent 99.999% of the music out there.

Second, you need to analyze the spectrum to know. What appears noise-like is not what it seems. And if you did create such crazy signals, it would be damaging to many things with MQA being the least of your worries.
 

JohnYang1997

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You can ban me if you'd like, but you're sidestepping the main point I am making in that post:

MQA was making claims about losslessness. GoldenSound set out to test those claims. To test a claim of losslessness, that requires measurements and structural analysis / comparison.

It's not a case of "finding religion when it comes to MQA." It's using the right kind of analysis for the claim. You don't use a "listening test" to evaluate a claim of losslessness. You can use a listening test for other types of claims -- but losslessness is a specific type of claim.

And to address your earlier comments, he tested more than just test sounds - he also tested files containing "natural music" and found the same kinds of results.
No. If his ONLY talks about MQA not being mathematically lossless there would be NO drama.
He managed to dragged MQA themselves, TIDAL, Topping, SMSL, Amir under the water. Insanely amount of BS claims, accusations without any evidence.
He uses MQA not being lossless as a shield to defend anything not related to MQA being lossless or not.
People just can't comprehend the fact we can agree on something while not agree on something at the same time?
We all agree that MQA is not mathematically lossless. Everything being discussed here is anything other than that.
 

amirm

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Here at the moment holo may, topping e30, phasure nos1a (which isn't suitable for all sorts of reasons, that thing is a weird product), chord mojo, modi multibit, ares 2.
Though stuff is coming in/going out somewhat frequently.

Holo may was tested by l7audiolab / @WolfX-700 though. As was the serene. Not sure if that'd suit.

Ill see if I can get a friend of mine to make an amp switcher as he did one recently for someone else.

I created a new thread so let's take the discussion there: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/blind-test-we-have-a-volunteer.23857/
 

DimitryZ

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Happy for her. As a cleared Raytheon employe I am sure she does not post her real name and place of employment on international forums (fora?) either… As for ‘I was talking about you’, yes your ad-hominem attacks are well noted by now. Finally, employment at Harman Kardon, within a ‘credentials’ discussion, is like… how to make it clear to the likes of yours… like you getting a decent offer from Lockheed (Or BAE, if you’re in the UK.) :)

But I find @amirm - @GoldenOne ’s discussion much more interesting than ours, so suggest we pay attention there… But by all means have one more jab at me, if you must.
I don't know if you understand this...but professionals don't post offers. It's a thing with us. My VPs name is known. Just look me up - my real name is in my profile and go from there.

And your real name?
 
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