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Hifiman HE6se Review (Headphone)

Tks

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Am I the only person in the world who actually kinda likes these cables?
Nothing really beats Sennheiser cables (basic 600 series of cables I mean). Great material to the touch, supple, and not microphonic at all, literally no need nor want for anything better. All these wierd audiophile cables make no sense to me. Even Sennheiser commits a travesty with their higher end cables (sleeving them in idiotic paracord for the 800 series).
 

staticV3

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I'm guessing this EQ filter would do nicely on the HE1000se, anyone know how similar their response is?
Crinacle has measured both:
graph (11) (7).png
 

Jimbob54

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I don't really believe it either, and in fact the Harman Research from Olive & Toole showed that there was no correlation between headphone price and user preference. I think really headphone quality comes down to a number of factors: frequency response, distortion, soundstage, channel matching. Frequency Response generally being the most influential as long as the other variables aren't completely messed up.....and indeed a lot of the boutique headphones have crazy messed up frequency responses with many jagged peaks & dips and often no particular rhyme or reason to the general shape of the frequency response. Distortion is an easy one to characterise, you measure it, but then the debate comes down to what levels of distortion are audible and also what SPL level should you measure distortion at.....for instance I know I don't listen loud (I calculated it) so I know Amir's 94dB distortion measurement is the only one that has relevance for me, and only then in the bass. Soundstage is very hard to characterise & no one really knows but it seems to be down to angled pads/drivers and large ear cups along with the frequency response heavily affecting this characteristic too. Channel Matching is easy to measure, and I've recently done a channel matching EQ for my K702 headphone, as Oratory measured my actual unit so I was able to channel match the channels exactly/perfectly (in frequency response from 20-10000Hz).....I think this has enhanced vocal clarity and beauty, found myself being able to understand words in previously difficult to understand vocals, as well as seeming to open up a bit more detail in subtle reverb on some voices or instruments in the recording, and also seemed to allow me to notice subtle or quick panning effects that I'd not noticed before - I have the impression that channel matching is a variable that can suffer in cheaper headphones as the manufacturer has not been able to include the time & expense to allow for proper selection of matching drivers. In conclusion I think I'd say there's not really a link between price & quality, with the exception of channel matching and possibly lower distortion in more expensive headphones, but re distortion & price less of a correlation as there are some expensive headphones with horrendous distortion.

For instance after EQ, I'm not particularly convinced there'd be a noticeable difference between this headphone reviewed and it's cheaper planar headphone the HE4XX that I have (HE4XX based on the HE400i):
HE6se:
View attachment 131267
View attachment 131269
HE400i:
View attachment 131268
View attachment 131270


EQ can sort out the frequency response differences, and even though distortion is higher in the HE400i, for me the only relevant measured level is 94dB - the blue line, and even 94db is too loud for me when it comes to mid & treble, but the bass level distortion shown on the 94dB is certainly relevant to how I use my headphones, which is comfortably low on the HE400i. So yes, I don't believe in the ultra expensive headphone hype train, there's definitely a balance to be had. I'd try to buy a headphone that doesn't have glaring frequency response issues, reasonable distortion results, angled drivers/pads and good channel matching - this doesn't have to be an expensive headphone (and of course EQ the frequency response if it's been measured, I wouldn't buy a headphone that hasn't been measured).

There really only is one way to prove or disprove the more expensive vs less expensive issue to yourself. You simply cannot do it just by looking at the combined charts.

Borrow/ audition a pair of well reviewed/ well measured "expensive" ones (lets use the 6SE as a theoretical example) and its far cheaper sibling- lets use whichever Hifiman 400 one has. As long as you have an EQ from the same source and target for both, EQ them both and play. See which you prefer. I strongly suspect you might be surprised as to the extent of the difference. Or I might be with how little there actually is.

Note- I am not saying price is a guarantee of quality or superiority- far from it. Nor am I saying that a $1500 pair is worth it compared to the $150 that might measure similarly. I am also quite sure some people might prefer the cheaper one. But assuming one would not be able to tell a difference is pushing it too far the other way for me.
 

Robbo99999

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No to Aldarrin (1 post above mine), You have expressed the desire that I do not respond to your messages any more but because you asked directly I will reply this time.
Ok, thanks, I didn't realise I'd said that to you, but I might have intimated it in the past - you've rubbed me up the wrong way before, ha!
 

Robbo99999

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There really only is one way to prove or disprove the more expensive vs less expensive issue to yourself. You simply cannot do it just by looking at the combined charts.

Borrow/ audition a pair of well reviewed/ well measured "expensive" ones (lets use the 6SE as a theoretical example) and its far cheaper sibling- lets use whichever Hifiman 400 one has. As long as you have an EQ from the same source and target for both, EQ them both and play. See which you prefer. I strongly suspect you might be surprised as to the extent of the difference. Or I might be with how little there actually is.

Note- I am not saying price is a guarantee of quality or superiority- far from it. Nor am I saying that a $1500 pair is worth it compared to the $150 that might measure similarly. I am also quite sure some people might prefer the cheaper one. But assuming one would not be able to tell a difference is pushing it too far the other way for me.
That's certainly one way of determining if there's a difference between expensive & inexpensive headphones - ie listening to both as you mentioned, but the problem with that is that you'd have to listen to loads of different models at different prices in order to arrive at the end conclusion, so not really practical. I'm basing my conclusions based on relating measured frequency response (combined with EQ effects), measured distortion vs my listening impressions on the headphones I own that have been measured for such.....therefore I've put into perspective for myself the effect of measured frequency response, distortion & channel matching. So that's what my conclusions are based on....my own experience of my headphones vs their respective measurements, which in my opinion is more valuable/practical than trying lots of uber expensive headphones vs cheaper ones. (My most expensive headphone is the HD600 and also my least favourite when all have been EQ'd, but it's my best headphone without EQ). If you can place no value on the measurements that are done on this site, then there would be no point in measuring them....and that does not tally in my experience.....I do think it's possible to judge a headphone from it's measurements with soundstage being the exception.

I think the only real difference between expensive headphones and cheaper ones is two areas, channel matching & distortion with the former being more of a correlation, whereas high distortion can often be seen in uber expensive headphones. If I was gonna have to nail down one difference I'd say channel matching, but beyond that I don't think there's correlation between price and quality.
 
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Jimbob54

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That's certainly one way of determining if there's a difference between expensive & inexpensive headphones - ie listening to both as you mentioned, but the problem with that is that you'd have to listen to loads of different models at different prices in order to arrive at the end conclusion, so not really practical. I'm basing my conclusions based on relating measured frequency response (combined with EQ effects), measured distortion vs my listening impressions on the headphones I own that have been measured for such.....therefore I've put into perspective for myself the effect of measured frequency response, distortion & channel matching. So that's what my conclusions are based on....my own experience of my headphones vs their respective measurements, which in my opinion is more valuable/practical than trying lots of uber expensive headphones vs cheaper ones. (My most expensive headphone is the HD600 and also my least favourite when all have been EQ'd, but it's my best headphone without EQ). If you can place no value on the measurements that are done on this site, then there would be no point in measuring them....and that does not tally in my experience.

I'm not saying listen to loads , my theory isnt that expensive headphones are all better than their cheaper siblings. Its saying you stating you dont think you would be able to tell a difference between the 4XX and the 6SE, both EQ is just a little naive IMHO.

Nor did I say I place no value on measurements. Thats a horrendous misrepresentation and bordering on a straw man. Im saying you put too much value on just the measurements.
 
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Robbo99999

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I'm not saying listen to loads , my theory isnt that expensive headphones are all better than their cheaper siblings. Its saying you stating you dont think you would be able to tell a difference between the 4XX and the 6SE, both EQ is just a little naive IMHO.

Nor did I say I place no value on measurements. Thats a horrendous misrepresentation and bordering on a straw man. Im saying you put too much value on just the measurements.
Yeah, I don't think I'd be able to notice a difference between 4XX and 6SE when both are EQ'd. Both have angled pads and same or similar earcup size/design, both are planar headphones, distortion variable between the headphones wouldn't be noticeable at my listening levels, and the frequency responses of both are not messed up enough to not be able to EQ them to the Harman Curve effectively. For me I don't think there would be a difference based on my experience of relating measurements of these different variables to my listening impressions - for instance my K702 has higher distortion than either of those headphones and I'm not bothered by it so I could rule that out as a variable. I will say that the channel matching variable could be the deciding factor between the expensive 6SE and the 4XX, but Oratory measured lots of samples of 4XX and said the channel matching was very good between the various units. So yeah, I'm quite confident there wouldn't be a difference between EQ'd 4XX and EQ'd 6SE for me.
 

Jimbob54

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Yeah, I don't think I'd be able to notice a difference between 4XX and 6SE when both are EQ'd. Both have angled pads and same or similar earcup size/design, both are planar headphones, distortion variable between the headphones wouldn't be noticeable at my listening levels, and the frequency responses of both are not messed up enough to not be able to EQ them to the Harman Curve effectively. For me I don't think there would be a difference based on my experience of relating measurements of these different variables to my listening impressions - for instance my K702 has higher distortion than either of those headphones and I'm not bothered by it so I could rule that out as a variable. I will say that the channel matching variable could be the deciding factor between the expensive 6SE and the 4XX, but Oratory measured lots of samples of 4XX and said the channel matching was very good between the various units. So yeah, I'm quite confident there wouldn't be a difference between EQ'd 4XX and EQ'd 6SE for me.

Fair enough. Just do me a favour- if you ever get the chance to listen to an expensive pair that you have seen and like the measurements of, please try.
 

Robbo99999

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Fair enough. Just do me a favour- if you ever get the chance to listen to an expensive pair that you have seen and like the measurements of, please try.
That would be interesting to try, just to confirm my extrapolations....and to be honest HE4XX would be the best one to compare against considering that earcup design & size seems very similar between a lot of the Hifiman models and these two in particular, so HE6SE & HE4XX would be a perfect comparison when both EQ'd to the Harman Curve, especially as channel matching variable is seemingly put to bed with Oratory's observations of good channel matching with HE4XX. This would be the one to try & then send back....not to mention that I probably wouldn't spend £1499 on a set of headphones and given I'm expecting them not to wow me with soundstage too. Don't really feel like shelling out on £1499 given risk of damage on return, that's the problem.
 

doug2761

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That's certainly one way of determining if there's a difference between expensive & inexpensive headphones - ie listening to both as you mentioned, but the problem with that is that you'd have to listen to loads of different models at different prices in order to arrive at the end conclusion, so not really practical.

This is why I come to this site to read the headphone reviews. I was hopeful that there would be some clear winners - headphones that sound and measure well without EQ - that could be auditions for personal preference. At this point in the journey I think I was naive. This is definitely not like picking out a DAC and amplifier. We'll see if some patterns emerge with more of these reviews.
 

Robbo99999

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This is why I come to this site to read the headphone reviews. I was hopeful that there would be some clear winners - headphones that sound and measure well without EQ - that could be auditions for personal preference. At this point in the journey I think I was naive. This is definitely not like picking out a DAC and amplifier. We'll see if some patterns emerge with more of these reviews.
Indeed, there's a lot of variation between headphones, and pretty much all of them require EQ. I noticed you say you were hoping to find headphones that are good without EQ, as an aside I'll quickly recommend you Sennheiser HD600 (excellent without EQ apart from bass & soundstage, best of my headphones without EQ), AKG K371 (& NAD HP50) as closed back. That's it for my recommendations without EQ. All of those headphones have been reviewed on this site, and also measurements for those can also be found on Oratory1990's reddit site.
 

faheem

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I only have the original HE 6 which ought to have a similar, if not identical sensitivity. Regarding power requirements when using it portably, the only portable dac/amp I know of that gives clean and loud enough sound is the ifi iDSD Black Label. While the Focus A pads I have mounted improve the bass response, the og HE6 is still a bit lean sounding. I therefore use the PEQ of SpotEQ or the XBass option on the ifi.

As much as I would love it to work, the E1DA SG3, despite being one of the most powerful super compact dac/amp combos, has not enough juice. Without EQ it reaches mid levels but hasn't enough headroom for tracks with lower sound level. And there is no way to EQ the bass without distortion.


The Xcan is also very good, on it's own it's average, BTR5 connected via 3.5mm into Xcan ( 2.5mm hp out ) and scoped with a 56 ohm load and test signal @ 40hz and 1khz.

I get 5.2V
Xcan without BTR5 clips @ 3.7v

I also have a Diablo and in Balanced Eco nets 4.16v , Normal 7.62v and Turbo 6.9v
 

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PeteL

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Btw, the complaints about lack of power are usually coming from folks not perceiving a pleasant tonality. A real lack of power would be evident by not getting loud enough, evident distortion, lack of headroom when EQ-ing.

Alas, in the audiophile, enthusiast, community, using EQ is still something that is taboo, or at best avoided in favor of amp "matching" only, so that often a non pleasing tonality will end up being interpreted as, you guessed it, a lack of power.

And of course there is always the question about how much one can trust amp specs papers.

I had the original HE-6, it was indeed lacking in tonality, regardless of power.
Not really, not always evident. Lack of power can mean dynamic compression of fast transient and Inhability to maintain measured frequency response in the bass region. Not getting loud enough is more linked to lack of gain. and distortion is not always "evident". Yes it can totally translate to "unpleasant tonality" depending on our definition tonality. Lack of dynamics even more likely.
 

PeteL

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Hi man, not sure if your message was intended for my message above, but my G6 DAC only puts out 2V (nowhere near the 10V you mentioned), and I only listen at 86dB for an equivalent max Vrms on that headphone (0.08V), which will be in the bass and at perfect Harman levels down to 20Hz.
View attachment 131279
(above screenshot from my experiment & calculations to work out the max level I listen out fleshed out in detail here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-measured-by-oratory.22992/page-2#post-767745) (at that link that's calculations for my K702, but I have done the same experiment & calculations for my HE4XX, the end result being the screenshot above)
I have my JDS Labs Atom Amp at 12 o'clock on Low Gain (Unity Gain) combined with -3.5dB on the Windows Volume Slider (79%) and of course negative preamp to cover the EQ (about -9dB if I recall)......so I'm really not pushing my HE4XX even with Harman Bass EQ.
So you want to listen to "only" 86 dB SPL. dB spl A weighted? Does this calculator takes in consideration Fletcher Munson? Is the desired loudness is as measured by a SPL meter? Even on fast setting those don't take loud transient. measurments of "Loudness" are by definition an average. This calculator can't possibly know the crest factor of the content, and at the very least it should have a "Needed Headroom" field. You need way more power than that if you want to listen at 86 dB SPL A weighted and not compromise the content.
 

Robbo99999

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So you want to listen to "only" 86 dB SPL. dB spl A weighted? Does this calculator takes in consideration Fletcher Munson? Is the desired loudness is as measured by a SPL meter? Even on fast setting those don't take loud transient. measurments of "Loudness" are by definition an average. This calculator can't possibly know the crest factor of the content, and at the very least it should have a "Needed Headroom" field. You need way more power than that if you want to listen at 86 dB SPL A weighted and not compromise the content.
This is how I worked it out, as I've not explained it very well today, so it's better for me to just refer to a post where I think I have explained the process well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...as-been-measured-by-oratory.22992/post-767745

Basically, that process takes into account the max signal that you can expect....which given my EQ will be in the bass area. And it is in RMS, so max theoretical RMS, not an average RMS of the music. So I think that as a total would answer your questions. (It's calculated, not directly measured at my headphone, the only measurements involved are the measurements from Oratory that confirmed 102.2dB/Vrms as the sensitivity of my headphones, and Amir's measurement of my G6 DAC that's proven to output 2V max, oh and the fact that my headphone amp (JDS Labs Atom Amp) operates at Unity Gain when on Low Gain. So calculations based on that and my subjective max listening levels based on me progressively decreasing the negative preamp in Equaliser APO.....so I've managed to calculate based on regressing through that in relation to the max capabilities of my DAC & unity gain on my amp. But look at my linked post where I think I explain it the clearest, I'm not doing very well on the clarity of explanation front today! :p
 
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roskodan

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Not really, not always evident. Lack of power can mean dynamic compression of fast transient and Inhability to maintain measured frequency response in the bass region. Not getting loud enough is more linked to lack of gain. and distortion is not always "evident". Yes it can totally translate to "unpleasant tonality" depending on our definition tonality. Lack of dynamics even more likely.
This is how I look at it.

"gain" is just a "spec" telling you the ratio between input and output. What really happens when observing the "load" is P=V * I

There is no such thing as having enough "gain" (V) on the load but not enough power, or vice versa.

The issue is when there is current limiting going on, and therefore the voltage (V) on the load will be limited by the current (I) capability.

In that case, I imagine, what happens is peak current, high energy transients (aka high frequency component) will not be limited as will (RMS) high power , low energy transients (aka low frequency component).
 
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dav0043

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I'm sorry, I have to ask: if a headphone (or a speaker, for that matter) only sounds great with EQ, is it really a great product? Question has been eating at me for some time.
This one is important to me as vinyl & CD listening are not EQ'ed. EQ is great for digitized formats (PC, iPad) but not as practical for analog and direct CD.
 
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