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Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

nuko

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Was going to get the D30, but then saw the D10. Which is the better DAC between the two in terms of sound quality/measurements?
 

Scott Hollinger

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Good day, just joined the forum. I appreciate your efforts in testing equipment and not get caught up in the "audio flavors" the equipment does or does not display. I have been in radio programming and production for decades. I have no technical background though I have always worked with old school Electronic Engineers and have learned to trust their experience and judgment as well when it comes to electronic equipment. Having said that I am interested in the Topping 10 offered on the current Massdrop. I intend on using a Linux Mint computer as my playout and am wondering if the D10 will work with Linux? I've assumed it will or can be made to work but searched through the forum and couldn't find a definitive answer. I've read the D30 does right out of the box, so if the D10 doesn't, then I'll spring for the D30. Thanks!
 

dc655321

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I intend on using a Linux Mint computer as my playout and am wondering if the D10 will work with Linux?

Can't speak for the D10, but I have a Topping NX4 DSD and use it with my laptop running Ubuntu.
I have had no issues with Linux and any of the USB DACs I've used (NX4, SMSL iDEA, DF Black).
 

Scott Hollinger

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Great, thanks for your responses. I am currently using a Tascam US-122 as my ADC/DAC. It is capable but "long in the tooth" In the studios where I work doing voice production we are using the Focusrite 2i2 for basic voice work and have also used the Yellowtec PUC2 boxes as well. Both great little economical ADC's.
 

rvsixer

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...In the studios where I work doing voice production we are using the Focusrite 2i2 for basic voice work and have also used the Yellowtec PUC2 boxes as well. Both great little economical ADC's.
Good to know, thanks. I am looking for decent reasonably priced ADC to rip my vinyl collection.
 

Scott Hollinger

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Good to know, thanks. I am looking for decent reasonably priced ADC to rip my vinyl collection.
There could be other ADC of lower price capable of similar performance. The Focusrite 2i2 has a very low noise floor and is fairly transparent to my ears. Measurements might reveal another story but our studios have used them for several years with no issues. You can get them for $150 new.
 

Wombat

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Regarding our discussion of exchanging op amp in D10 I found a great article which covers this topic in detail and in, what I consider to be, a professional way: Here are some of the parts of the article that I found particularly interesting:

MYTH: MOST OP AMPS SOUND DIFFERENT - There’s a general perception that op amps sound different. Many gear manufactures tout op amp brands and part numbers in their marketing literature. The $3 OPA2134 is supposed to sound much better than the $1 NE5532 and the $10 AD8610 is supposed to sound better still. But do they? The chip companies don’t help the perception implying some of their op amps offer better sound. But used properly, in a typical audio application, I’ll challenge anyone to a listening test and bet they won’t be able to tell the above three op amps apart. The only catch is it would be a blind test and the listener won’t know which op amp is which.

MYTH: MOST OP AMPS ARE COMPATIBLE - Op amps are complex devices. While many have the same pin configuration making it appear you can simply substitute one for another, that’s often not the case. They’re optimized for different input bias values, configurations, gains, feedback circuits, load impedances, quiescent currents, speeds/bandwidths, compensation values, operating voltages, noise trade-offs, etc. But some audiophiles can’t be bothered by, or don’t understand, all those details. So they simply swap them out without changing anything else in the circuit. Many have a favorite op amp or two they like to use in most everything without considering if it’s a good match. It’s like the old quote “when you have only a hammer everything looks like a nail”. But that just doesn’t work for op amps. And, not surprisingly, some op amps do better than others when you ignore their requirements. Again, this is a lot like the Second Grain Of Truth above. If you use a given op amp incorrectly, it may well sound different. But it’s not the op amp’s fault. The person misusing it is creating the audible differences.

MYTH: OP AMP UPGRADES ARE USUALLY WORTHWHILE -The forums are full of posts from people who buy some perfectly nice piece of audio gear, open it up, discover the manufacture used a “cheap 5532” op amp, and they promptly pop in something much more expensive and exotic to “improve the sound”. These are usually people who lack the test equipment to have any idea if their op amp swaps help, hurt, or are just a waste of money. They simply use their ears, in highly biased sighted listening, and draw all sorts of erroneous conclusions. I know of op amp swaps causing potentially harmful oscillation. Someone might hear ultrasonic artifacts from the oscillation as “newfound detail” when, in reality, they have unwittingly created a radio transmitter. And this isn’t as rare as you might think because of the “faster is better” mentality. (photo: photozou.jp)

TRANSPARENCY: If op amps really have a “sound”, as many audiophiles suggest, it would follow when you add op amps to the signal path the sound should change. Two guys named Meyer and Moran conducted a very interesting rigorous study. They played high resolution SACDs on a high end system and sometimes inserted an extra A/D and and D/A into the signal path to “down convert” the high resolution audio to CD quality (16/44) audio. After 500+ trials lasting more than a year, using audiophiles, recording engineers, and students as listeners, they found nobody could tell when the extra A/D and D/A was in the signal path. On top of demonstrating the supposed benefits of SACD are highly questionable they also managed to demonstrate that A/D and D/A converters can be audibly transparent as well. And, as you may have guessed, both the A/D and D/A add several op amps to the signal path. But nobody could tell they were even there. There have been many more blind tests that also demonstrate different op amps (and much more) indeed sound so much alike even audiophiles can’t hear the difference. See the Matrix audio test for another example.

Complete article can be found here: http://nwavguy.blogspot.hr/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html

While I do believe pretty much everything stated here, it would still be interesting to see what will happen with the performance when that op amp is swapped with a "better" op amp.
Since Topping stated that those 2 op amps that cannot be replaced are doing I-V conversion I am assuming that 3rd op amp that can be replaced is acting as an output buffer. I asked Topping to confirm it and will post there reply here when I get it. I am of course very sure that if difference can be heard it could only be for much worse as slightly better THD and/or SNR we wouldn't be able to hear.


Bravo, Bravo.

This should be a go-to 'sticky'.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Bravo, Bravo.

This should be a go-to 'sticky'.
Not to start a fruitless debate, but... The premiss that there can never be any discernable audio difference is just another religious belief IMO. Just as extreme as a person who changes a fuse, and jumps up screaming they have attained audio nirvana!

Look... humans with senses do have the ability to discriminate with (ALL) of these senses. People may be different in ability, but still can...

Looking at the above post and simplistically stretching it a bit, people shouldn't be able differentiate between people's voices. E.g.Durring a phone conversation how can one know if they are speaking to uncle Charlie or cousin Vinny?
 

Job

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For some reason Spotify was buggy as hell with the Topping D10. I had to change to another output device when booting Spotify, start a song and then select the Topping D10 again to get proper audio. Songs just wouldn't start playing with the D10 as the playback device. This while Windows 10 itself had no problems sending sound to the D10.

Installing the drivers provided by Topping fixed this behaviour. However, now I'm limited to 32bit 192kHz (in the properties - advanced - default format in the sound settings in Windows 10 64bit) from 32bit 384kHz, but that's not an issue for me. I'm already happy Spotify works properly again.

Edit:
All Drivers: http://en.tpdz.net/drivers.html
D10 Driver page: http://en.tpdz.net/wdzn_detail/newsId=60.html
Which links to Dropbox (because bandwidth is expensive?): https://www.dropbox.com/s/laf9heiphv8glfj/D10 Manual and Driver.zip?dl=0
 
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Krunok

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For some reason Spotify was buggy as hell with the Topping D10. I had to change to another output device when booting Spotify, start a song and then select the Topping D10 again to get proper audio. Songs just wouldn't start playing with the D10 as the playback device. This while Windows 10 itself had no problems sending sound to the D10.

Installing the drivers provided by Topping fixed this behaviour. However, now I'm limited to 32bit 192kHz (in the properties - advanced - default format in the sound settings in Windows 10 64bit) from 32bit 384kHz, but that's not an issue for me. I'm already happy Spotify works properly again.

Edit:
All Drivers: http://en.tpdz.net/drivers.html
D10 Driver page: http://en.tpdz.net/wdzn_detail/newsId=60.html
Which links to Dropbox (because bandwidth is expensive?): https://www.dropbox.com/s/laf9heiphv8glfj/D10 Manual and Driver.zip?dl=0

Don't worry, Spotify streams in 320kbps for Premium users and can't get better than that. Bitrate capabilities are only correctly presented with the manufacturer driver, nothing else.
 

frogmeat69

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Just received notice that my D10 shipped from Massdrop, holy cow that was quick, drop only closed a day or two ago.
 

Timbo2

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I picked one of these up based on the strength of this review, the price and a good bit how it looks. It matches very nicely with the retro look of my JDS Labs O2 headphone amp.

I haven't had any noise issues unlike others here. There is no noise I can attribute to the display and since I’m running the O2 on batteries no mains noise from the amp.

The DAC I was using prior was a Sabaj Da3. This is where it gets interesting. No surprise, subjectively they seemed to sound the same on most recordings. However, on really hot mixes (i.e. approaching 0 dBFS) it seems like the high end on the D10 sounds marginally better. This makes me wonder if the Sabaj, similar to some other DACs measured here, distorts at maximum output. I know the Sabaj is on Amir’s to-do list. I’ll be curious if my impression matches Amir’s measurements or it is my imagination.
 

rvsixer

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I received my D10 from Massdrop last night (darn post office left it ON the stairway...me, the dog, and the dac almost all went flying). Plugged it in this morning for a quick test. Silent at idle, sounded fine playing music, and love how the display is bright when first powered up and then dims to a palatable level.

So a side effect. I am trying out Tidal via free trial. Previously I always had gaps during playback of originally gapless material (i.e. Pink Floyd The Wall), it bugged me enough to cancel the trial (in addition to a major bug I found, and their tech support responded with rebooting your PC will fix it, a totally canned and totally incorrect answer).

As of this morning with the new D10, I no longer had any gaps during Tidal playback (no other changes to playback chain). Can a DAC even effect that, or is it just a welcome coincidence?
 
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