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Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

richard12511

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What's the polar response with 8351 + W371A? In my mind it makes no sense to have constant directivity from 100-500 only for the system to go near omni up to 1000 hz before regaining some directivity control.

I can't understand the hype.
Ones don’t go Omni below 1000Hz. They go Omni below 500 Hz in the vertical plane, and Omni below 250Hz in the Horizontal plane.
W371 + 8351/8361 should have the most constant directivity of any speaker system. Kii BXT and 8c are close, but not quite as perfect above 500Hz. Maybe something from MEG is better(hard to find where I am). All this is if things work as advertised. I’d like to wait and see third party measurements.
 

richard12511

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Yeah, well... I don't trust those plots below 1000 hz. It shows my M2's to be constant directivity down to around 200 hz, which is far off the mark according to spinorama measurements.
No way you're getting directivity Control down to 500 hz with such a small speaker.

Seems weird to think Genelec is lying or incorrect here, when all their data up to now has been proven correct by the NFS. Speaking of, we also have NFS data showing the even smaller 8341 controlling directivity down to 300/500. Your claim that they go omni below 1000Hz seems weird. Where did you get this omni below 1000Hz figure? Even small speakers without slot loaded woofers can control lower than that. Not that it's impossible, but I would need to see some data to back up your point. Do you have other measurements to counter Genelec's and Amir's measurements? If not, why should we take your hunch over Genelec's and Amir's NFS measurements?

That said, I do have some concerns around the 500Hz mark, especially if you're running them vertically(like in the above pictures). To me it looks like the W371 is just barely making it to up 500Hz(or at least that's all they show), while the 8351 is just barely making it down to 500Hz. They both look like a very controlled 50 degree beam, but below ~600Hz, the 8351 seems to jump up to 85 degrees. Unless the W371 can affect the beam width above 500Hz, I would think you're gonna get a 40 degree directivity bulge around 500Hz.

Note this problem is mostly fixed by using the horizontal orientation(which controls down to ~250Hz), but you're still gonna get a smaller 15 degree bulge. Not the end of the world, as the Kii and D&D show similar bulges and are less perfect everywhere else, but it is something I see that gives me pause. 500Hz is supposed to be the upper limit, right? It seems like the lower you crossover below 500Hz, the wider that bulge is gonna be? Why I'd really like to see measurements of a complete system.
 
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richard12511

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Let's check like for like and see if it's a good match directivity wise.
From the source itself;

View attachment 128822
View attachment 128823

Looks like around 45 degrees dispersion up to 500 hz with the sub and that doesn't match with 8351 until above 1000 hz.
So in combining those speakers you get far more energy spread into the room between 500-1000 hz than anwhere else. To me that isn't desirable.
Personally I'd aim for consistency in directivity behaviour.

So, I don't understand the extreme hype.

Note the very different scaling on those plots, it deceives the eye into seeing a big difference that isn't actually there(W371 looks more narrow due to 2X scaling). You also picked the worst 8351 orientation as well as one of the ugliest W371 modes in the PDF ;). Not saying it was intentional, but it does change things.

I hadn't read this post before responding to your first post, but this is that bulge I was talking about in the vertical orientation. I definitely see what you mean here, and it's what I was trying to show in my other post. It really does seem to me that the Ones have to be laid horizontally on top of the woofer to achieve constant directivity. I wonder if Genelec talks about this anywhere? I believe I've seen them advertise it in both positions.

You really can mostly fix it by laying the speaker in the horizontal position(which controls the -3 down to below 250Hz), though it does still bulge a bit. Here is what it looks like with correct vertical scaling, crossed around 300-400Hz, and using the normal modes. By "normal" I mean horizontal 8351 + CD W371(aka kii 3 mode). The graphs you posted were vertical 8351 + a null steering mode that sacrifices some beam uniformity for the sake of fixing a room problem.

Screen Shot 2021-05-09 at 2.47.38 PM-min.png


*Note horizontal scaling is off now to account for the fact that Genelec shows twice the vertical scale on the ones. The overall graph would look much better with correct horizontal scaling.

So yeah, I can get where the hype comes from. If they really do integrate as well as Genelec claims. It's kinda like a better version of the Kii 3 BXT, as the 8351b directivity is more well controlled than the Kii 3(due to point source and vertical directivity) above 500Hz. The W371 is also a more advanced version of the BXT, as it gives a few things that the Kii can't:

1. Custom crossover based on what works best for the room(I believe the BXT just compliments the 3 and spreads the bass load out?)
2. More ways to eliminate room problems. Not only does it have the cardioid mode down to 50Hz(shown above), but it also has 3 other cardioid modes that sacrificing a bit of beamwidth uniformity to fix either a side wall, ceiling, or floor reflection. Finally, it has a complimentary mode that uses both woofers(as well as the Ones woofers?) to allow the drivers to only produce those frequencies for which they aren't seeing a null.

So yeah, if it works properly, it's a better Kii 3 implementation for slightly less money. The Kii3 BXT is a SOTA speaker system, so besting it should be worthy of hype(imo). It's more of a mystery, though, until we see complete measurements. The nice thing about the Kii system is that the bass module (I think) just increases headroom and lowers distortion. It doesn't actually alter the directivity(since the Kii already has it built in).

We really need to see complete measurements, though. Maybe Genelec could send a complete system in for review?
 
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q3cpma

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Note the very different scaling on those plots, it deceives the eye into seeing a big difference that isn't actually there
Note also that the horizontal scale is logarithmic on the monitor's but not on the W371A's and that the transition is likely cleaner due to the crossover blending it.
The nice thing about the Kii system is that the bass module (I think) just increases headroom and lowers distortion. It doesn't actually alter the directivity(since the Kii already has it built in).
I think it does since it has side woofers too, but I'm not sure.
 

richard12511

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Note also that the horizontal scale is logarithmic on the monitor's but not on the W371A's and that the transition is likely cleaner due to the crossover blending it..

Agreed. I did my best to balance it vertically and splice it at a similar frequency response, but it was still not balanced horizontally.

Crossover will definitely make it better than my simple snip and splice, but that's kinda why I want to see measurements. I'm curious how one would measure it, though. GLM is what integrates the W371 with the monitor, but you wouldn't want to measure with GLM engaged. Maybe you can bypass calibration and the alignment/crossover will still work?

I think it does since it has side woofers too, but I'm not sure.

Pretty sure both have the side woofers, but I could be wrong. Kii 3 is one of the speakers I'm really considering for my small 2 channel room(waiting for measurements) and one thing I really liked is that it seemed mostly the same as the Kii 3 + BXT for small rooms. There was someone on here who owns them and posted measurements of both, and IIRC, the distortion was the only real difference.
 

Sancus

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GLM is what integrates the W371 with the monitor, but you wouldn't want to measure with GLM engaged. Maybe you can bypass calibration and the alignment/crossover will still work?

It sortof depends on how it works specifically. With the normal calibration, you can always run it and then delete the PEQ filters manually afterwards, leaving you with only the crossover. But I don't know if there's some internal magic when you have the W371A enabled that you can't disable, for example.
 

MarsianC#

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Pretty sure both have the side woofers, but I could be wrong.
BXT got two woofers on each side, but none on the back. I guess directivity stays the same.
But I don't know if there's some internal magic when you have the W371A enabled that you can't disable, for example.
I think they use some FIR filters to adjust the phase perfectly. Around or above 300 Hz latency is not a big problem.

Both are great systems! Would love to test them.
One wonders when D&D comes up with their BASS machine ;)
 

YSC

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Good evening everyone

After many listenings for 2 years, B&W, Paradigm, Tad, Revel, Focal ... my quest for the musical Grail is finally over.
I had the great pleasure of being able to attend yesterday the first (a first 8351B W371A duo has already been installed in France in September 2020 by LARKA from HCFR) calibration in France of an 8361A + W371A set at the Chopin Center with David and Gilles from Audio-Technica the importer.
View attachment 128573
What can I tell you.
The magic of listening to different modern and classical music: HANS ZIMMER, YOU SUN NAH, MAXWELL, HERBIE HANCOCK, BACH ...
Shivers ... just think about it
A musical emotion that none of us had ever encountered ...

Only one conclusion .... Genelec for life ... looking forward to receiving the 8351B + W971A duo which is optimized for this configuration.


Once again, thank you to Amir and to all the members of ASR who accompanied me in my process.
given how good the base lineup genelec 80xx series performs I am sure this will be really epic, hope one day I can remotely afford such thing
 

pierre

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As I read it when I was investigating the W371 it is GLM which helps you to decide the best frequency to cross over to the coaxial depending on the room and the mode you choose. It isn't guaranteed that 500Hz is optimum so not using the woofers in the "one" is not guaranteed.
It can be specified either to be cardioid or to fill in bass nulls - the reason the cabinet is tall and the drivers as far apart as possible.
My personal interest was more in the evening out the bass than the directivity.
In any case, it seems that when the sweeps are analysed and the user preference taken into account the crossover frequency to the W371 is one of the variables.
The two mode choices are outlined in this video

In my case, GLM set the crossover at 170Hz (not 500Hz).
 

Sancus

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In my case, GLM set the crossover at 170Hz (not 500Hz).

I'm going to guess you have the 8361A then, as that seems a bit too low for good matching with the 8351B, so I bet it sets it a bit higher with them. Though if it's setting crossovers that low, it does kind of make me wonder how much value is truly being added. My room doesn't have many problems between 100-200hz, for example.

With subs crossed at 80hz, $9000/ea W371As are operating over a mere 90hz frequency range...
 

Frank Dernie

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I'm going to guess you have the 8361A then, as that seems a bit too low for good matching with the 8351B, so I bet it sets it a bit higher with them. Though if it's setting crossovers that low, it does kind of make me wonder how much value is truly being added. My room doesn't have many problems between 100-200hz, for example.

With subs crossed at 80hz, $9000/ea W371As are operating over a mere 90hz frequency range...
The 8361 and 8351 have the same crossover bass to mid driver.
The W371 isn't a sub though, so crossing it over at 80Hz would be daft. It is part of the system and increases potential max loudness and adds extra directivity or room compensation capabilities to GLM.
The recommended OTT system with a combination a "one" and W371 includes a subwoofer as well FWIW.
 

FrantzM

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m 2 cents:

We tend to see crossovers as brickwall filters. That is they stop abruptly and cut-off all frequencies beyond the crossover point. We seldom mention the type and the slope... a 200 Hz 6 dB/Octave high-pass filter means that at 400 Hz, it is still playing but only 6 dB down ...I don't know how the GLM works, the speakers being DSP driven, I would assume that there are a variety of crossovers type and slope available. As well as delays, phase and other parameters ...
ASR has shown that one doesn't need to spend crazy amount of money to reach good to excellent results. True, but at this point in technology, the absolute best tend to cost more, until it trickles down or until the competition catches up and forces price and cost down. The balance is what are you willing and able to spend, to enjoy best sound , in the here and now. IME this Genelec combo represents an objective uber audio system and at a good price. It could be that my perspective has been irremediably screwed by my too long stay within the High End Audio community where you can find a fuse for $2800 ... a Yes! FUSE.:(
So if a person is willing and able to shell out the serious total of $28,300 (speakers + subs + $299 GLM including microphone) for this objectively SOTA speaker SYSTEM (Full range 2-channel speaker system. Amplifiers, DAC, and Digital Room Correction.), I would say: Go for it! Some knowledgeable people may be able to simulate this combo for less but if they were to sell you their solution, not gift it to you, it would likely cost the same... or more. And performance will not be guaranteed...
Would love Amir to get his hands on this .. Although given Genelec proclivity to honest measurements... I have no doubt the combo performs as advertised. That is a high bar.

Peace.
 

Absolute

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@Absolute I'd also like to see why you say the M2 doesn't controlled directivity down as low as the beamwidth plots suggest. I would think that it could control directivity pretty low, as it has a really wide baffle.
Just look at the directivity index in the spinorama and you'll see. It's flat meaning constant from around 800 - 8000 hz.

Spin - JBL M2 (full spin).png


Comparing that to S&R polar plot we see that it looks like there's more or less controlled directivity down to below 400 hz. depending on which colors you look at. It's just difficult to use this plot in a meaningful manner, so that's why I don't "trust" the S&R plots.
I'd like to see combined response or spinorama with directivity index for proper understanding of how the dispersion looks.

unnamed.jpg
 

Sancus

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The 8361 and 8351 have the same crossover bass to mid driver.
The W371 isn't a sub though, so crossing it over at 80Hz would be daft. It is part of the system and increases potential max loudness and adds extra directivity or room compensation capabilities to GLM.
The recommended OTT system with a combination a "one" and W371 includes a subwoofer as well FWIW.

I wasn't suggesting it should be crossed over at 80Hz. What I was saying is that if your W371 crossover is 170Hz, and you're using ACTUAL subs at 80Hz, the W371 is playing over a very narrow range. I would expect the crossover to be more like 250Hz or 300Hz... if you are expecting the W371A to improve your in-room sound at those frequencies, anyhow.

The 8351B/8361A's native crossovers may be the same, but the directivity is not, nor is the woofer SPL capability, so it wouldn't make sense for GLM to have the same crossover search parameters for both. I would guess it works a bit differently for each model.

It seems like the default range is 150-250Hz according to the GLM manual, which is a bit surprising to me. Most of my room issues are in the 200-500hz range in fact, so it seems like by default this might not even help me that much. Perhaps that is unusual for a studio though, and you should alter the default according to your room in any case. I dunno.

We tend to see crossovers as brickwall filters. That is they stop abruptly and cut-off all frequencies beyond the crossover point. We seldom mention the type and the slope... a 200 Hz 6 dB/Octave high-pass filter means that at 400 Hz, it is still playing but only 6 dB down ...I don't know how the GLM works, the speakers being DSP driven, I would assume that there are a variety of crossovers type and slope available. As well as delays, phase and other parameters ...

You're correct that we don't actually know the slopes of the W371 crossover, and it doesn't say in either the manual or GLM manual. I do think it's unlikely they're using a particularly shallow one like 6dB/oct.
 

stevenswall

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Be careful assuming the 8361 is the best unless you're looking at high SPL! The 8351 may have slightly more accuracy and smoother dispersion, not to mention the wider dispersion of the old 8260, though it can't be used with the w371 unfortunately... In any case though, that is a dream system, and I can't think of any other that I'd want to end up with!

I wish Genelec would show up at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, or a show in California and wipe the floor with all competing passive systems at any price.
 
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