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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

peng

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The question is very simple. in which configurations/connections to an outboard amp does the 4700 clip at 1.4 volts and in which configurations does the 4700 drive a clean signal to the 2.3 volts indicated on the graph in the test?

I think you are clear on the preamp mode, that will give you "clean" preamp output at 2 V and a little higher.

So I'll just try to explain the other "configuration(s)" you seem to be referring to.

Scenario/Configuration 1, that is, non preamp mode, and you are not using the amp assign feature, or "trick" in this case, to disconnect the FL and FR internal power amps.

In this case you can still expect SINAD of about 97 dB up to 1.4 V or a little higher. If you consider 97 dB clean (for me even 75 dB SINAD is "clean") then it is clean at 1.4 to 1.45 V. At higher output voltages, such as at 2V, SINAD would deteriorate to about 75 dB and probably down to 60-65 dB at 3 V.

Scenario 2, still in non preamp mode, but you are using the amp assign trick to disconnect the FL and FR internal power amps:

In this case, since the FL and FR power amp inputs are disconnected from the FL and FR preamp outputs, you can expect about 97 dB SINAD at preamp outputs (FL and FR only) of 2 V. Again, the preamp outputs can actually reach much higher than 2 V. If you looked at the curve of the AVR-X6700H, SINAD remained quite "clean", at 92 dB when the preamp output reached 4.4 V. I wouldn't count on the exceptionally high 4.4 V consistently but I would say 3 to 3.5 V should be attainable consistently.

That's for the FL and FR preamp outputs that are disconnected from the internal power amps, the other preamp channel outputs that are still connected to their corresponding power amp inputs will again, have about 97 dB SINAD at voltages up to 1.4 to 1.45 V and will drop to about 75 dB at 2 V.

So the bottom line is, if you don't use preamp mode, you can only disconnect the FL and FR power amps from the FL and FR preamp outputs, so you can only expect the FL and FR preamp output signals to remain "clean" at 2 V, whereas the other preamp output signals will remain "clean at up to 1.4 to 1.45 V and down to about 75 dB at 2 V and beyond.

I hope this is clear, if not, we can try again.:)

Lastly, keep in mind "clean" is a relative term, we all know Amir seems to set his bar quite high. For me, and I am sure many others as well, 75 dB SINAD is perhaps clean enough. Put it this way, the Marantz AV7705's SINAD was about 75 dB at 2 V (that is 4 V from the XLR outputs) and that is for preamp mode naturally because it is a preamp processor. So clearly many of the AV7705's owners may consider 75 dB is "clean".:D
 

peng

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If you read above, the question was about which mode would allow higher preamp voltage without clipping. So that's how it helps.

I wouldn't conclude that the preamp clips at higher than 1.4 V when not disconnected from the power amps. To me, it is far more likely that the lower SINAD was the result of the power amp clipping, (not the preamp) and somehow the "dirt" found its way back to the input and degrade the SINAD). So if we break that connection by either using the preamp mode or the amp assign trick, the preamp will be isolated from the "contamination". There are likely different opinions of the details of what actually happens, but I have not been able to find a satisfactory answer from the "authority".
 

JonfromCB

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Thanks Peng....not only for your patient explaination, but for bringing me back to earth about a 75dB signal being "clean" lol I'm not being a snob but when I do finally choose an external amp , I would like it to have a SINAD reasonably close to my 4700 with understanding that the 4700 SINAD of 97 at 2.3 volts is, well lets just say it's "pretty clean".

I think I'm clear on the pre-amp only mode. I know I've said my eventual plan is to use my 4700 in pre-amp only mode with either all 5 or 7 channels powered by an external amp. For the benefit and clarification to other 4700 users who have the same questions and want to know if their 4700 can be used in this configuration without clipping at 1.4 v, it should drive a signal of 2.3 volts with a SINAD of 97. That is important information for those considering which amps to buy. If I don't have that right, please clarify.

Likewise, I hate to see any 4700 owners buy an amp that is senstivity mismatched for their 4700 configuratation and then try to send a clipped signal to it because they didn't understand they needed an amp with a sensitivity of no more than 1.4 V for their desired configuration.

I'll read and digest your above response a couple of times later tonight to make sure I'm understanding it correctly and if I'm not, I'll take you up on your gracious offer to try again. Thank you.
 
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peng

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Thanks Peng....not only for your patient explaination, but for bringing me back to earth about a 75dB signal being "clean" lol I'm not being a snob but when I do finally choose an external amp , I would like it to have a SINAD reasonably close to my 4700 with understanding that the 4700 SINAD of 97 at 2.3 volts is, well lets just say "pretty clean".

I'll read and digest your above response a couple of times later tonight to make sure I'm understanding it correctly and if I'm not, I'll take you up on your gracious offer to try again. Thank you.

Any time, we are under stay at home order anyway.:D

By the way, Amir's SINAD vs output voltage graph might have been done under as slightly different condition. The 75 dB came from the dash board, with amps "connected".



1619737054116.png


Compare that to the more expensive AV preamp/processor (so called separate):
Note that it was almost 4 V from the XLR Out, is he had measured at the RCA Out, it would have been about 2 V.

So yes, as I said I much prefer 97 dB SINAD too for sure, but a lot of people who prefer Marantz products such as the AV7705. SR7015 obviously do enjoy their 75 dB (at 2 V RCA, 4 V XLR) and are not complaining.:D I think lots of people prefer higher distortions, I mean up to a point.. Not me, and obviously not you either.

1619737219624.png
 

amper42

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ECO ON mode reduces internal amp power by over 40% with Denon receivers. It allows the receiver to run cooler but it hobbles the internal amps dynamic range. It's not a bad feature if you off-load the Fronts and Center to external amps but I prefer using pre-amp mode only. Cooler running, greater dynamic range and higher SINAD with quality external amps.
 

Rottmannash

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@peng - I'm using the Monolith Monoprice 6ft Premier Series XLR Male to RCA cable between the March audio P452 and the Denon 4700. It's found here: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4777
The same cable would work on the P252. Alan at March Audio ([email protected]) confirmed it has the correct connections.

The P252 has a 26dB voltage gain which is a bit lower than the Denon Receiver amps but it does offer 150W in 8 Ohms. The 2 channel NC252MP from Buckeye amps is $499 vs March Audio version at $795 plus $90 shipping. The Buckeye amp seems a bargain in comparison.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...amplifier-builder-line-up-announcement.16835/
email ([email protected]) for orders
Current build ETA for new orders: June 28th
I have that Buckeye amp and the Eval 1 VTV and they sound very very similar. Great bang for buck the Buckeye.
 

Music1969

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Hi all

If the below measurement were repeated for HDMI input are we expecting SINAD = approx. 75 dB ?

In Pure Direct mode

1619766162887.png
 

Legal-Alien

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Hi to everyone. Reading here for long time, now registered...

My questions regarding the preamp-mode on my X4700:

I am using 2 different front-speaker- setups( 2 different front-speakers on the left and equivalent on the right side) ,

FL/FR-1 is used mostly for films and TV and connected to the internal amp ( assigned as 5.1.4 = 9.1), stored as Config-1 on the X4700.

FL/FR-2 is mostly used for music and connected with ext. amp (assigned as 11.1., trick-solution), stored as Config-2.

Will there be any effect for Config-1 with internal amp for FL/FR because the pre-outs on the X4700 (FL+FR) stay connected to the ext. amp (not powered on)?

Or will there be any effect for config-2 with external amp because the speakers of config-1 are still connected but logically switched off?


Question-2:
For my 2nd front-speaker-setup I'm using an integrated tube amp with a simple volume-poti.
Technical data shows an input sensitivity of 500mV to 2000mV.
Any suggestion how to use and fix the volume knob of the amp to work as a single power-amp?
The volume knob min is at 7 o'clock, max is at 5 o'clock. Right now I'm using the volume at around 3 o'clock.
How to match the external amp with the Denon?
 

peng

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Hi all

If the below measurement were repeated for HDMI input are we expecting SINAD = approx. 75 dB ?

In Pure Direct mode

View attachment 127177

The measurements of the pre outs using HDMI and analog input are virtually the same so the answer is yes, the results should be roughly the same. The DAC does not appear to be the bottleneck, the upstream components are.
 

amper42

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Hi to everyone. Reading here for long time, now registered...

My questions regarding the preamp-mode on my X4700:

I am using 2 different front-speaker- setups( 2 different front-speakers on the left and equivalent on the right side) ,

FL/FR-1 is used mostly for films and TV and connected to the internal amp ( assigned as 5.1.4 = 9.1), stored as Config-1 on the X4700.

FL/FR-2 is mostly used for music and connected with ext. amp (assigned as 11.1., trick-solution), stored as Config-2.

Will there be any effect for Config-1 with internal amp for FL/FR because the pre-outs on the X4700 (FL+FR) stay connected to the ext. amp (not powered on)?

Or will there be any effect for config-2 with external amp because the speakers of config-1 are still connected but logically switched off?


Question-2:
For my 2nd front-speaker-setup I'm using an integrated tube amp with a simple volume-poti.
Technical data shows an input sensitivity of 500mV to 2000mV.
Any suggestion how to use and fix the volume knob of the amp to work as a single power-amp?
The volume knob min is at 7 o'clock, max is at 5 o'clock. Right now I'm using the volume at around 3 o'clock.
How to match the external amp with the Denon?

Question 1. Front A/B Denon amp assign mode is not supported with "pre-amp only" mode on the Denon 4700 receiver. It is supported when only internal amps are engaged and the Front A/B mode is selected in Amp Assign. Based on your question I guess you physically change speaker cables to move from setup1 to setup 2 and change the Preset as well.

As to your question, "Will there be any effect for Config-1 with internal amp for FL/FR because the pre-outs on the X4700 (FL+FR) stay connected to the ext. amp (not powered on)?" - From my experience, the 4700 works fine with the external amp turned off when not required.

Question 2. I prefer to use external power amps with the Denon 4700 that are not "Integrated amps" with volume controls. I don't know the spec or design of the integrated amp you selected but many of them have "Home Theatre" mode that will maximize integration with a receiver. I would check to see if that is an option. If not, then I would call the amp manufacturer and ask what they recommend for this setup.
 
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peng

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Hi to everyone. Reading here for long time, now registered...

My questions regarding the preamp-mode on my X4700:

I am using 2 different front-speaker- setups( 2 different front-speakers on the left and equivalent on the right side) ,

FL/FR-1 is used mostly for films and TV and connected to the internal amp ( assigned as 5.1.4 = 9.1), stored as Config-1 on the X4700.

FL/FR-2 is mostly used for music and connected with ext. amp (assigned as 11.1., trick-solution), stored as Config-2.

Will there be any effect for Config-1 with internal amp for FL/FR because the pre-outs on the X4700 (FL+FR) stay connected to the ext. amp (not powered on)?

Or will there be any effect for config-2 with external amp because the speakers of config-1 are still connected but logically switched off?


Question-2:
For my 2nd front-speaker-setup I'm using an integrated tube amp with a simple volume-poti.
Technical data shows an input sensitivity of 500mV to 2000mV.
Any suggestion how to use and fix the volume knob of the amp to work as a single power-amp?
The volume knob min is at 7 o'clock, max is at 5 o'clock. Right now I'm using the volume at around 3 o'clock.
How to match the external amp with the Denon?

Config-1: It depends on the design of the input circuit and the input impedance of the ext. amp. If the design is such that when it is not "turned on", the input impedance is near infinite (like an open circuit), the it would have no effects on the pre out of your AVR.

Config-2: Would need to know the detailed specs of the integrated amp to offer any comments of suggestions related to your questions.
 

Legal-Alien

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Question 1. Front A/B Denon amp assign mode is not supported with "pre-amp only" mode on the Denon 4700 receiver. It is supported when only internal amps are engaged and the Front A/B mode is selected in Amp Assign. Based on your question I guess you physically change speaker cables to move from setup1 to setup 2 and change the Preset as well.

As to your question, "Will there be any effect for Config-1 with internal amp for FL/FR because the pre-outs on the X4700 (FL+FR) stay connected to the ext. amp (not powered on)?" - From my experience, the 4700 works fine with the external amp turned off when not required.

Question 2. I prefer to use external power amps with the Denon 4700 that are not "Integrated amps" with volume controls. I don't know the spec or design of the integrated amp you selected but many of them have "Home Theatre" mode that will maximize integration with a receiver. I would check to see if that is an option. If not, then I would call the amp manufacturer and ask what they recommend for this setup.

Hi and thanks.

I think you misunderstood my setup. I do not use the Front- A/B config of the Denon.

For my "B-Speakers" I use a complete different setup with the X4700 as you are able to store 2 totally different amp and speaker-setups.
You can change the 2 presets within a second via remote control. Thats a big plus compared to the x500-series.

So, I am using 2 different presets, first one is working with 9 internal amps and the second one uses an ext. amp for my B-fronts.

With this 2 presets I don't need to plug or unplug anything. B-fronts are connected to my ext. amp and A-fronts are connected to front-speaker-out within the Denon.
Another big plus is that both front-systems can be measured and corrected via Audyssey (this is not possible with A/B-Frontspeaker-Setup !!, only A-Speakers can be measured then).
 

Legal-Alien

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Config-1: It depends on the design of the input circuit and the input impedance of the ext. amp. If the design is such that when it is not "turned on", the input impedance is near infinite (like an open circuit), the it would have no effects on the pre out of your AVR.

Config-2: Would need to know the detailed specs of the integrated amp to offer any comments of suggestions related to your questions.

Hi peng,

So you think there could be some effect to the internal FL+FR-amps while connecting a "turned off" external amp via cinch to the preouts when the input impedance of the ext. amps is not near infinite?

My external amp is a simple Tube-Amp with EL34B-Tubes. I don't know too much about this model but it says input impedance is 100kOhms. Is this in turned on or off mode, or both modes? How can I check? (Input sensitivity is given 500mV to 2000mV)
 

Music1969

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The measurements of the pre outs using HDMI and analog input are virtually the same

Hi peng

Measurements of pre outs using HDMI input : SINAD = approx 75 dB

Measurements of amplifier output using analogue inputs: SINAD = approx 86 dB

So for HDMI input , you would expect amplifier SINAD to be closest to 75 dB because of HDMI related circuitry ?
 

peng

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Hi peng,

So you think there could be some effect to the internal FL+FR-amps while connecting a "turned off" external amp via cinch to the preouts when the input impedance of the ext. amps is not near infinite?

My external amp is a simple Tube-Amp with EL34B-Tubes. I don't know too much about this model but it says input impedance is 100kOhms. Is this in turned on or off mode, or both modes? How can I check? (Input sensitivity is given 500mV to 2000mV)

100 kOhm is definitely high enough, so I wouldn't worry about it at all. If it is turned off, it should be higher even if not infinite and you can safely measure it with an ordinary multi meter if you are curious to know roughly what it is. Make sure it is unplugged though so it is 100% off, before measuring.
 

peng

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Hi peng

Measurements of pre outs using HDMI input : SINAD = approx 75 dB

Measurements of amplifier output using analogue inputs: SINAD = approx 86 dB

So for HDMI input , you would expect amplifier SINAD to be closest to 75 dB because of HDMI related circuitry ?

You cannot compare those two measurements because the 75 dB was for preamp output at 2 V whereas the 86 dB was for the power amp output at 5 W.

If Amir had used HDMI output to measure the power amp output, I would expect SINAD to be around 86 dB as well. The much lower 86 dB vs the preamp's 96 to 97 dB is mainly due to the higher THD+N or the power amp, not because of HDMI vs Analog inputs that you may be thinking.
 

amper42

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Denon manuals indicate using both the Pre-out and the Speaker terminal of the same channel simultaneously is not supported. I'm going to make a guess it may be an electrical concern.

Obviously, you are not using both at the same time but they are both connected and it may happen accidentally? It may not be a problem, but I doubt anyone here is going to guarantee it couldn't cause negative effects under certain conditions. :D
 
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Music1969

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You cannot compare those two measurements because the 75 dB was for preamp output at 2 V whereas the 86 dB was for the power amp output at 5 W.

If Amir had used HDMI output to measure the power amp output, I would expect SINAD to be around 86 dB as well. The much lower 86 dB vs the preamp's 96 to 97 dB is mainly due to the higher THD+N or the power amp, not because of HDMI vs Analog inputs that you may be thinking.

Thanks peng, yes good point, I was comparing apples and oranges.

A better question is (and more relevant to my need/use), would you expect HDMI input to result in same 4 ohm amp measurements below, which were CD analogue input in pure direct.

With same SINAD vs watts curve:

1619792987779.png


1619793007067.png
 

peng

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Thanks peng, yes good point, I was comparing apples and oranges.

A better question is (and more relevant to my need/use), would you expect HDMI input to result in same 4 ohm amp measurements below, which were CD analogue input in pure direct.

With same SINAD vs watts curve:

I don't know but I can guess based on the difference between the two scenarios. The analog path, in direct mode would not include the DAC. The SINAD of the DAC is 107 dB, so I don't think they should be any significant degradation. My guess is, the results would be almost the same. May be you should ask Amir why he always use analog input for that test.
 
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