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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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raistlin65

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I really do not understand why so many people react so angrily to any testing done on MQA with all sorts of criticisms that the tests are imperfect when it is MQA that is preventing proper testing from being done, not those doing the testing.
Why are people so happy to simply take MQA at their word and trust them when there is so much evidence from various people showing all sorts of issues and contradicting MQA's claims?

Same reason people get upset when their several hundred dollar R-2R DAC measures worse than a $100 Atom DAC. They've been sold a lie about a so-called superior technology, and they don't want to admit it to themselves.

The arguments about credentials, subjective preference and manufacturers supporting it are all nothing to do with the issue I intended to further discussion on, which is simply, are MQA's marketing claims true?

The criticism about credentials is just an ad hominem attack that indicates you are on the right track with your tests and observations. When marketing prose is greatly exaggerated (I'm being generous) like it is with MQA, people can't offer a valid rebuttal, so they have to attack you as a person. Their only other option is to ignore you.
 

HoweSound

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That's OK. His recondite arguments and his tasteful dance around the real issues help support the idea that there is indeed a secret society conspiring in favor of MQA. Whether there actually is or isn't is irrelevant in terms of entertainment value. And it keeps us occupied while we still wait for a clear and concise explanation of the benefits of MQA for customers.

There is a theatre of the absurd quality to the debate - as in Waiting For Godot.
 

PierreV

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There may be one other explanation. Maybe, just maybe Mr JA is under NDA. He seems to know a lot but stops just before spilling the beans, teasing readers and leaving them wanting for more. I don't know how often that comes about in his position but if i were a mfg with what i consider to be proprietary design or information (and that info was needed to explain more about my product to a prominent reviewer) an NDA would be one of the first things i would put in place.

Not a lawyer and dont play one on TV but my interpretation is Mr A knows a lot more than he is or can say. If so, you sort of have to give him a get out of jail free card, no?

Well, I value his measurements more than I value the tears expensive trash brings to the eyes of his co-writers, that's for sure.

But he could very simply say something extremely positive such as

"MQA is the best lossy codec around, too bad that when it replaces standard CD LPCM, if f**** customers who don't have MQA enabled devices".

but no, when the conversation heads towards the 3 (or 2.5) bits non-MQA user don't get, he goes into a tangent, coincidentally about unrelated 13-bit stuff, then complains he is misunderstood.
 

mansr

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The criticism about credentials is just an ad hominem attack that indicates you are on the right track with your tests and observations. When marketing prose is greatly exaggerated (I'm being generous) like it is with MQA, people can't offer a valid rebuttal, so they have to attack you as a person.
Note how they adapt the attacks depending on the target. They don't know who Archimago is, so he is dismissed as "anonymous" (conveniently ignoring that all academic peer review is done anonymously). Others who are open about their identities are denounced as "amateurs" or worse. No matter who you are, they will find some quality you lack and insist that this invalidates anything you say.
 

Grooved

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Well, I value his measurements more than I value the tears expensive trash brings to the eyes of his co-writers, that's for sure.

But he could very simply say something extremely positive such as

"MQA is the best lossy codec around, too bad that when it replaces standard CD LPCM, if f**** customers who don't have MQA enabled devices".

but no, when the conversation heads towards the 3 (or 2.5) bits non-MQA user don't get, he goes into a tangent, coincidentally about unrelated 13-bit stuff, then complains he is misunderstood.

IMHO, it's not what you need first, because it's actually not his product. The one that should start to tell the truth, whatever it may be, is Stuart.
For example, his video with the origami, should be only showing the first unfold because it's the one that takes hidden data and recreate something wider. The following are upsampling, so why letting people believe it continues to unpacked things if the source was higher than 96kHz ?
It's a lie.

No, it doesn't. I have signed a number of NDAs with various companies, and not one has compelled me to make absurd public statements in defence of the other party.

I have signed several too, and I won't disclose anything from them, but I also won't defend them later if it's not needed, or just because some people are starting testing it and still searching.
I even have one NDA with the only company that tried to get around a patent I own, and in this case, I will never defend them on anything ;)

John may have a NDA and not be able to talk about some thigns, but it's not the NDA that makes him talk about MQA here.
 
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muslhead

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No, it doesn't. I have signed a number of NDAs with various companies, and not one has compelled me to make absurd public statements in defence of the other party.
Mansr - As have i but in this case i was referring to its position alphabetically, nothing more so, yes it does. Take a deep breath
 

PierreV

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No, it doesn't. I have signed a number of NDAs with various companies, and not one has compelled me to make absurd public statements in defence of the other party.

Likewise, on the NDA stuff. But tbh, I feel expressing your suspicions too loudly may undermine the value of your technical analysis in the eyes of outsiders (coming from someone who has followed them and has a favorable opinion of your work)
 

HoweSound

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JA works for AVTech Media Americas, which publishes a basket of Hi-Fi magazines. I consider them captives of and spokespeople for the industry, much like the NRA and gun manufacturers; he dare not bite the hand that feeds him.

AVTech – MyTimeMedia
 

muslhead

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JA works for AVTech Media Americas, which publishes a basket of Hi-Fi magazines. I consider them captives of and spokespeople for the industry, much like the NRA and gun manufacturers; he dare not bite the hand that feeds him.

AVTech – MyTimeMedia
couldnt agree more as with most things in life .... just follow the money (especially true in goverment)
 

Grooved

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Not sure if it's linked but I just saw that Tidal has updated their subscription on the Australian page, and there are now three offers.
Basic offer 'Premium" stays at the same price (11.99), Hifi is now adding FLAC at a new intermediate price (17.99), and a new "Hifi Plus" adds Master for the same price than the old Hifi offer (23.99).
Still leaves the problem of that this Hifi offer should bring you 16bit FLAC while they are 16bit MQA for a lot of tracks.
 

mieswall

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My simple question is it noticeably better or worse?
Does it measure better? Does it sound better. Sound is far more important than anything else to me.
It maybe subjective to say one sounds better than the other, but since our ears are analogue and we have individual hearing loss it's a credible question.

I'm pretty sure the people that say it doesn't haven't tried, at least in long auditions and/or with MQA DAC's or properly configured. Otherwise, we won't be reading all this hate.

I have two rather modest DAC's: A Chord 2Qute (about US$1300 in its time) and a Project Pre Box Digital S2 (MQA enabled; $500; I bought it specifically to try if hardware decoded MQA was in fact better). When playing non MQA files, the Chord sounds a little better (in fact, I think Chord sounds more harmonically rich than most DACs I've tried, dozens of them). The Project DAC ( ESS 9038-Q2M) while very pleasant, has a little thinner sound. When not listening MQA files, I prefer that sweetness of the Chord unit.

But when it comes to MQA files, the switch from the Chord to the Project (with the DAC properly configured in the pc to decode by hardware, not that obvious) is instantly noticeable, even with the Chord already playing MQA unfolded by software. The sound opens up, with an obviously deeper soundstage with sounds floating freely in a larger space; more focused instruments, more precisely localized, with finer micro-detail and palpability in each one. You can resolve with more clarity things like the individual voices of singers, or the same singer overdubbed in a slightly different pitch. Bass notes have a clearly better perceived decay (and that with a thinner sounding DAC); resonance of drums or lower piano notes are more noticeable. There is a wider dynamic range. Perhaps the most evident element (besides that killing 3dimensionality) is the explosiveness of sounds with quick transients, like when a drumstick hits the border of the tom-tom, or the upper part of a cymbal, for example. Some not quite radical changes in timbre. Back to the Chord and the soundstage collapses immediately (even through the Metas...), some of all that finesse gone.

That said, there are a few records where the difference is not that much (never heard one worse though); on the other hand there are others where the improvements are just shocking: a sense of realism, of the musicians being here that is just intoxicating. Btw, normally the higher the sampling, the better it sounds (2L recordings are exceptionally good). But even with 44.1K there is an clear improvement. I listen mostly jazz (from 50's onwards), classical (Beethoven to Bartok, some baroque), some electronic music (Hecker, Fennesz, Frost, Subotnick...). Occasionally some pop or classic rock. By far the most I listen is the ECM catalog that's almost completely available in MQA, and although many are only in 44.1K, even then when I compare them with my own CD's (my unit as a transport to the same DAC)... well... it is unfair, there is simply no comparison.

Some of these things may be noticeable because of some remasterizations available in MQA. It is a good question if those would be available if not for some protection for the publisher provided with MQA authentication. I don't have QoBuz, and to be honest, this same MQA passionate war is held in a local site in my country. Some users swear they don't hear differences between Tidal (192K) and HR files of QoBuz (also available there, same sampling); for example this was the comment of somebody about the "Ultimate Mix" of Lennon's first post-Beatles work, the beautiful "Plastic Ono Band". Perhaps, but all I can tell is that compared with my CD, the difference of this master is just light years.
 
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amirm

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Of course. Money makes the world go round and it's no different here.
What do you mean by "here?" Me? And why do you think the anti-MQA camp doesn't have paid shills? A manufacturer that doesn't want to implement MQA is surely motivated commercially.

So it is absolutely clear: I, nor anyone in my moderation team has any commercial relationship with any company, MQA or not. There are some things worth defending that has nothing to do with money.
 

amirm

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Look at what happened with dolby. There is absolutely no room for innovation in that market because dolby has a monopoly.
They don't have a monopoly because DTS exists.

Dolby does have incredible power though. They got the studios to back them in the cartels that set AV standards and got themselves mandated in such standards as DVD, Blu-ray, ATSC, etc. They also spent a ton of money creating a brand that companies associate with good technology and hence have consumer pull as well.

MQA is not remotely situated like Dolby and will never be.
 

amirm

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But also, if people think that assuming MQA continues growing, that they will operate in the same way they do now in 2-5 years time, they're fooling themselves.
It has been 2 to 5 years and dire predictions of folks like you have not come true. In sharp contrast I predicted that if Apple or Amazon got into HD music, they would NOT use MQA. That has proven correct with Amazon publishing standard high-res PCM. Why is your prediction proven wrong and mine right? Because I know the industry. I know that the content industry will never, ever create a gate keeper that taxes the ecosystem like MQA. And that powerful tech companies will fight to death any attempt to do so as well.

Now, if you are a little DAC company selling $10,000 DACs, yes, you better put MQA in there because as you said, customers are asking for it. I am not going to cry for them. I am not sure why you would be sad for them either. For that kind of money, they better jump through whatever hoops and make MQA work. Or put pressure on MQA to change like Roon did with ability to post EQ.
 

7ryder

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What do you mean by "here?" Me? And why do you think the anti-MQA camp doesn't have paid shills? A manufacturer that doesn't want to implement MQA is surely motivated commercially.

So it is absolutely clear: I, nor anyone in my moderation team has any commercial relationship with any company, MQA or not. There are some things worth defending that has nothing to do with money.

I took it as the "here" he referring to is MQA, not ASR.
 

PierreV

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They don't have a monopoly because DTS exists.

Dolby does have incredible power though. They got the studios to back them in the cartels that set AV standards and got themselves mandated in such standards as DVD, Blu-ray, ATSC, etc. They also spent a ton of money creating a brand that companies associate with good technology and hence have consumer pull as well.

MQA is not remotely situated like Dolby and will never be.

One of the differences, as a consumer, is that the benefits of Dolby-B and C on cassettes were instantly obvious. No blind test needed.
 

amirm

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I think people are completely missing what MQA is doing as a technology solution. They created a way to perceptually encode ultrasonic and > 16 bit depth in music. They could have released this as a new format by itself but instead, choose to add a bonus: to encode the new information in a, in-the-clear baseband "16 bit" format. That format is designed to be "good enough." Not lossless but good enough.

The only reason to shed a tear for 16 bit degradation is to claim that all 16 bit formats will go away and get replaced with MQA. There is zero sign of this. Indeed, we have the reverse with Quobuz, Amazon, HDTracks and a bunch of other outfits distributing non-MQA, lossless content. These companies have no motivation to adopt MQA and start paying licensing fees. None.

MQA faces severe risk with respect to only Tidal supporting them. If they go poof, so does MQA.

This is it really. Everything else is being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
 
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