MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

[pLudio]

The evidence now is that Warner Music replaces their non-MQA FLAC files with MQA versions, but some other labels may keep both versions.

Perhaps not surprising since Mike Jbara went from Warner to MQA.

 

[mansr]

Yes - of course I have not tested everything on Tidal, but from my sample yes. Using https://github.com/purpl3F0x/MQA_identifier for this and still haven't found an instance where I couldn't get a non MQA 16/44 FLAC. So definitely the information I quoted in my previous post is not correct.

If someone wants me to check a specific release on Tidal I'm happy to do it.

From a quick look at that tool, it seems like it will miss some MQA files since it doesn't check all the allowed bit positions.

 

[snowsurfer]

From a quick look at that tool, it seems like it will miss some MQA files since it doesn't check all the allowed bit positions.

It has worked OK for me until now but I will bring that up on GitHub. The tool is parsing the waveform so I don't know how it could miss an MQA file, but my technical knowledge is limited, so, if you say so, I guess it's true. We'll get to the bottom of it.

 

[awdeeoh]

even roon has a bug about not detecting the mqa file but is authenticated when played.

you can also use the MQA Tag Restorer app.

 

[mansr]

It has worked OK for me until now but I will bring that up on GitHub. The tool is parsing the waveform so I don't know how it could miss an MQA file, but my technical knowledge is limited, so, if you say so, I guess it's true. We'll get to the bottom of it.

Most MQA files have the marker that tool looks for in bit 16 counted from the top, i.e. the LSB of 16-bit data. However, a few files use other bit positions, and those will be missed by that tool. Mine (https://code.videolan.org/mansr/mqa/) checks all the bit positions allowed by the decoder.

 

[guenthi_r]

Mine (https://code.videolan.org/mansr/mqa/) checks all the bit positions allowed by the decoder.

Silly question, but has VLC dectection capability for MQA files?

 

[mansr]

Silly question, but has VLC dectection capability for MQA files?

No idea. I'm just hosting that code on their servers.

 

[guenthi_r]

No idea. I'm just hosting that code on their servers.

Ok, thanks.
Is there a precompiled version for Windows around?

 

[Deleted member 13028]

Good job GoldenOne. It is what most of us have long expected. As I understand it, Roon can do the magical final unfolding. Does that mean that the only way to do EQ/DSP in the digital domain is by using Roon until this MQA lossy compression algorithm is inevitably reverse-engineered?

 

[Waltson]

There is no evidence of MQA charging Roon, or Roon passing on that charge to anyone....

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/why-do-manufacturers-support-mqa/155965/21?

 

[Grooved]

On Tidal, many albums in standard FLAC have been replaced by MQA versions...

Right, but not for all at this moment.

So, at least the quoted part of this post is currently not true.

Wrong and true as it's not on all tracks. Like I said, not the case for all tracks/album at this moment. It's easy to see that in Roon, some albums had a 16bit FLAC (what HiFi should be in Tidal) and 24bit MQA (Master in Tidal), but they now have 16bit MQA (in HiFi in Tidal) and 24bit MQA (no change for that).
I listed some in the past as soon as I saw that happening, just to be sure it was not temporary error.
If you want an example, look at "Humanz" from Gorillaz (see pictures below)

I was also a Tidal subscriber for their CD-lossless library (hifi tier) and then they added MQA without changing the subscription fee.
So for me personally, MQA has been free as has been for vast majority people who consume it.

I agree on most of your points, but this one is linked to the "past" and not "present" problem on Tidal :
Right, it was added for free, I got the same, but it was 24bit MQA (Master) that was added for free.
Now, the problem is not on Master but on Hifi, where Tidal is starting to delete the 16bit FLAC file and replace it with 16bit MQA, and this without informing any customers.
The main problem IMHO is not with MQA itself but with Tidal hiding a change where at leats a part of their customers was paying the Hifi plan to use more the Hifi part than the MQA part, and are starting to get now files that are not what they paid for.

And this seems to me to be the crux of the problem with Tidal. If MQA was optional then anyone that wants to use it can. Which, btw, was the way I thought Tidal worked until recently. Now that I know that's not the case, I'm out.

You got it, and some people discovered that just by listening, because yes, and on some tracks, you can hear a difference (I'm even not saying "negative" or "positive" difference here, just a difference). Other discovered that from Roon info, but Tidal has never communicate on that precise thing.
For people knowing it now, they have the choice to stop for Tidal subscription, and some people will said "so what's the problem ?"
And the problem is that it's not how it should work in this world, any paid offer getting a change should lead to customers being informed by the company offering the service, not by people discovering it.
And the problem is worst from Qobuz, even if it seems to be on few tracks like the ones of 2L records.

On Tidal, this album for example had 2 versions in 16bit FLAC, they are now 16bit MQA only, no FLAC.
On Qobuz, FLAC are still there

Regarding 2L on Qobuz, it's the opposite, it says 24bit FLAC on Qobuz app AND on Roon, while the album is 24bit MQA.
You can check "The Nordic Sound"

They both Tidal and Qobuz have to fix this misinformation, and Tidal has to informe that they are deleting, at least some, FLAC files

 

[snowsurfer]

Right, but not for all at this moment.

Wrong, it's true, but like I said, not the case for all tracks/album at this moment.

I am now very confused since you are saying that the statement was true, and in the very same sentence confirming it is not true by saying "not the case for all tracks/albums at this moment".

 

[dmac6419]

On Tidal, many albums in standard FLAC have been replaced by MQA versions (especially from Warner Music). In the past, when an MQA version was added, the original FLAC version would remain and both would be available. Now it seems that when an MQA version is published, it replaces the original FLAC (which becomes no longer available). As I understand, Warner is converting their entire catalog on Tidal (millions of tracks) to MQA and I have seen this happen to many albums on Warner.

You have a Tidal account or are you repeating what you've heard.

 

[PierreV]

Your beef is with a company and its style of business. That, as I have explained, is out of line.

I thought the piggy bank panther was a metaphor for companies and their style of business...

 

[Grooved]

I am now very confused since you are saying that the statement was true, and in the very same sentence confirming it is not true by saying "not the case for all tracks/albums at this moment".

Will edit, it's indeed not clear. Actually, you were both right and wrong, because it's the case on some tracks, and not on other tracks. We can't generalize it.

You have a Tidal account or are you repeating what you've heard.

I don't know if he has, but I have subsciptions to Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon, Deezer, Spotify (for different members of my family but I can use all), Roon and more, several DAC including ones with MQA decoding+rendering, and can confirm it, but being clear, it's 16bit FLAC that are starting to be replaced by 16bit MQA (the 24bit MQA are not the problem, they appear when they launch the Master option, and did not replace any other format, they were added and are always link to the Master option).
The problem is on Hifi option, and there was another strange thing : some tracks (mainly on album having no more than 16/44.1 original master, so never having any Master option on Tidal) were changed from 16bit FLAC to 16bit MQA but not recognized as MQA (the DAC or Roon were showing it through), then these track versions were changed to "official" 16bit MQA, and then changed again to not recognized as MQA

I think it's a bit why people have never talked so much in the past about one codec, it's just because it was a bit clearer. With MQA, there are talks on MQA technique itself, debat on his potential utility, on it's sound... and these points can be debated without the need to be "100% against" or "100% for",... and there are the talks on which I consider totally different, replacing something you paid for (16bit FLAC) by something else without official comunication on that.
The funny thing is that I just received an email from my mobile provider saying that they want to replace one of my mobile plans for one with more data but also a higher price : I have no choice to keep my plan, but I'm inform of that, and can accept the new plan and price, or stop my plan immediatly at no cost even if I still have engagement. They want to change something on my offer, they announce it. This is not what Tidal is doing, and in the lower level, what Qobuz does with a few MQA tracks showing as 24/44.1 FLAC.

 

[dmac6419]

I have read this thread with much interest and will chime in.

I signed up for Tidal Hifi (I also have a Spotify Family Premium account) years ago before they got into MQA. I am paying a whole lot extra for what they advertised: Lossless. Now where I live, it is not exactly very cheap. I went with Tidal with the assurance I am getting CD quality as I do not have a huge CD collection. I wanted to have the option to listen to more bands and discover new ones.

Then MQA came about. At first I wasn't too bothered but then I started to read about how great MQA is. I don't own any MQA DACs and the only way I could decode MQA was to purchase the option in UAPP for the first unfold. Did I hear any differences? For some albums yes and some no. Abbey Road was the album that I could hear differences as an example (I have the FLACs ripped from the CD). Did MQA sound better? I don't know.

Now that I am more aware of what MQA is and isn't.......... and what I am seeing happening in Tidal... I think it doesn't work out for me anymore. I am not dissing the codec, but I started out with Tidal cos I wanted lossless. I would not have given a hoot if they had regular CD and MQA versions of the same material side by side, but I do see stuff being replaced with only MQA.

So there is a principle here. I am paying for lossless... not lossy. So I have left Tidal following that principle.

Tidal is the same price as it always been,it didn't go up or down.

 

[dmac6419]

Will edit, it's indeed not clear. Actually, you were both right and wrong, because it's the case on some tracks, and not on other tracks. We can't generalize it.

I don't if he has, but I have subsciptions to Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon, Roon and more, and can confirm it, but being clear, it's 16bit FLAC that are starting to be replaced by 16bit MQA (the 24bit MQA are not the problem, they appear when they launch the Master option, and did not replace any other format, they were added and are always link to the Master option).
The problem is on Hifi option.

I can pick the albums (version's) I chose to play,I don't understand why other can't.

 

[sandymc]

The further this thread goes, the more it looks like this is just a mess on an epic scale.

 

[dmac6419]

The further this thread goes, the more it looks like this is just a mess on an epic scale.

Most of them don't have a Tidal account, don't listen to MQA track's,most of them are just ranting about something they don't even use and it's stupid.

 

[mansr]

Most of them don't have a Tidal account, don't listen to MQA track's,most of them are just ranting about something they don't even use and it's stupid.

Thanks for you concern and kind words.