MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

[sandymc]

You really think you can argue such a case in front of a lay judge and jury? If we had just facilities, we should go after people who sell $30,000 cables...

MQA appears to be a lot worse than $30,000 cables. $30,000 cables may not exactly be good value for money, but at least they don't introduce noise and distortion. Mostly, anyway.

 

[mSpot]

No they haven't removed standard flac not that I noticed

On Tidal, many albums in standard FLAC have been replaced by MQA versions (especially from Warner Music). In the past, when an MQA version was added, the original FLAC version would remain and both would be available. Now it seems that when an MQA version is published, it replaces the original FLAC (which becomes no longer available). As I understand, Warner is converting their entire catalog on Tidal (millions of tracks) to MQA and I have seen this happen to many albums on Warner.

 

[sandymc]

On Tidal, many albums in standard FLAC have been replaced by MQA versions (especially from Warner Music).

And this seems to me to be the crux of the problem with Tidal. If MQA was optional then anyone that wants to use it can. Which, btw, was the way I thought Tidal worked until recently. Now that I know that's not the case, I'm out.

 

[snowsurfer]

Now it seems that when an MQA version is published, it replaces the original FLAC (which becomes no longer available).

I checked this with the Tidal downloader from Github and haven't found any instance where a FLAC wasn't available. Randomly went through stuff on my playlist that is available in "Master" quality, 10 or 12 different albums, some of them are on Warner. So, at least the quoted part of this post is currently not true.

 

[voodooless]

I just dont understand why this is any different than audioquest cables though. Both companies make products that dont do anything appreciable at best, and are poor performers at worst.

While I don't care too much about the specific opinions of individual members on the matter, no matter what perceived status they might have. I am still curious to know what @amirm's reaction is to this?

What I would like even more is to have @amirm actual knowledge of losses encodings chip in here for a more in-depth analysis on what things might actually be possible in a compression scheme like MQA provides. I'd love to know for instance what bitrate would be needed to encode let's say a 20 to 40 kHz music signal with half-decent quality. What kinds of tradeoffs can be made here? What about effects like time smearing in lossy codecs (remember those first 128k MP3's).

And at @GoldenOne: Would be interesting to do another analysis on your tracks from Spotify. What does the lossy compression do with those test signals? What is the difference? Does the encoder also go haywire?

Also, note that you could actually encode a 320 kbit Vorbis file, noise shape the output (basically just whitening the data), and then shove them into the lower 5 to 6 bits of a 24-bit track. It would fit, and would still contain 18 bits of "lossless" audio, 5 to 6 bits of additional noise, and a fully Vorbis encoded version of the same track. Obviously, these two data sources are then totally uncorrelated, so realistically there is no good use-case for this, but it does indicate how much room there actually is to encode additional lossy information in those lower bits.

 

[sandymc]

I checked this with the Tidal downloader from Github and haven't found any instance where a FLAC wasn't available. Randomly went through stuff on my playlist that is available in "Master" quality, 10 or 12 different albums, some of them are on Warner. So, at least the quoted part of this post is currently not true.

Are "Master" tracks the only tracks that are MQA encoded though?

 

[JSmith]

This thread needs some comedy to lighten the mood I reckon;

JSmith

 

[Grumple]

There is no evidence of MQA charging Roon, or Roon passing on that charge to anyone. And I was not grandfathered with Roon. You had the option of paying yearly or all at once and I did the latter.

You talk about "problems" but I have not seen them. Your beef is with a company and its style of business. That, as I have explained, is out of line. Apple is one of the worst companies in this type of business. 30% of all app sales on their platform goes to them. You have zero, zero way to sell an app on their platform. Total monopoly. Yet so many people love apple and no one talks about these "problems." Instead, folks are getting upset over this little thing called MQA. Go spend the energy to open up Apple store. Then you will be doing some good.

Go push for patent reform so that cartels don't get together, create the next wireless standard and then charge every consumer many dollars with full blessing of governments/anti-trust laws.

You are worried about claims of a $5/bottle water company while ignoring mass market problems per above. Don't waste your online time on things that don't matter.

That is a borderline whataboutism. If we were only concerned with the issues our peers declared we should be concerned with there would be no progress in any field. Tidal and MQA seem to be in engaged in, at best, cloudy marketing. The intent clearly seems to be to delude people. That should surely be something a forum such as this is considered about. No?

 

[awdeeoh]

Are "Master" tracks the only tracks that are MQA encoded though?

Yes.

Plain old 16/44.1 PCM still exists in tidal.

 

[snowsurfer]

Are "Master" tracks the only tracks that are MQA encoded though?

Yes - of course I have not tested everything on Tidal, but from my sample yes. Using https://github.com/purpl3F0x/MQA_identifier for this and still haven't found an instance where I couldn't get a non MQA 16/44 FLAC. So definitely the information I quoted in my previous post is not correct.

If someone wants me to check a specific release on Tidal I'm happy to do it.

 

[sandymc]

Yes.

Plain old 16/44.1 PCM still exists in tidal.

You can MQA encode 16/44.1 tracks; that's the point of MQA

 

[snowsurfer]

You can MQA encode 16/44.1 tracks; that's the point of MQA

Yes, and I am saying that I am donwloading NON MQA encoded FLACs from Tidal releases with Master quality without a problem, and using MQA_Identifier to confirm that they are not encoded with MQA. When I download the "Master" version, it correctly identifies it as MQA encoded.

 

[abdo123]

There is no evidence of MQA charging Roon, or Roon passing on that charge to anyone. And I was not grandfathered with Roon. You had the option of paying yearly or all at once and I did the latter.

You talk about "problems" but I have not seen them. Your beef is with a company and its style of business. That, as I have explained, is out of line. Apple is one of the worst companies in this type of business. 30% of all app sales on their platform goes to them. You have zero, zero way to sell an app on their platform. Total monopoly. Yet so many people love apple and no one talks about these "problems." Instead, folks are getting upset over this little thing called MQA. Go spend the energy to open up Apple store. Then you will be doing some good.

Go push for patent reform so that cartels don't get together, create the next wireless standard and then charge every consumer many dollars with full blessing of governments/anti-trust laws.

You are worried about claims of a $5/bottle water company while ignoring mass market problems per above. Don't waste your online time on things that don't matter.

there is a strict no politics rule in this forum. so it's very unfair to say that we're hung up on the small things when we're not allowed to talk about the big things here. even in the off-topic sections.

 

[awdeeoh]

You can MQA encode 16/44.1 tracks; that's the point of MQA

I'm pretty aware of that.

 

[Thalis]

I have read this thread with much interest and will chime in.

I signed up for Tidal Hifi (I also have a Spotify Family Premium account) years ago before they got into MQA. I am paying a whole lot extra for what they advertised: Lossless. Now where I live, it is not exactly very cheap. I went with Tidal with the assurance I am getting CD quality as I do not have a huge CD collection. I wanted to have the option to listen to more bands and discover new ones.

Then MQA came about. At first I wasn't too bothered but then I started to read about how great MQA is. I don't own any MQA DACs and the only way I could decode MQA was to purchase the option in UAPP for the first unfold. Did I hear any differences? For some albums yes and some no. Abbey Road was the album that I could hear differences as an example (I have the FLACs ripped from the CD). Did MQA sound better? I don't know.

Now that I am more aware of what MQA is and isn't.......... and what I am seeing happening in Tidal... I think it doesn't work out for me anymore. I am not dissing the codec, but I started out with Tidal cos I wanted lossless. I would not have given a hoot if they had regular CD and MQA versions of the same material side by side, but I do see stuff being replaced with only MQA.

So there is a principle here. I am paying for lossless... not lossy. So I have left Tidal following that principle.

 

[mSpot]

I checked this with the Tidal downloader from Github and haven't found any instance where a FLAC wasn't available. Randomly went through stuff on my playlist that is available in "Master" quality, 10 or 12 different albums, some of them are on Warner. So, at least the quoted part of this post is currently not true.

Here are two examples (I can provide many more). These used to be available in both MQA and standard (non-MQA) FLAC, now only in MQA.

Itzhak Perlman, Paganini Caprices​

Astor Piazzolla, Zero Hour​

 

[axbarker]

I think this is an outstanding thread. I have now voted with my wallet and terminated Tidal and taken Qobuz. Is it just me, but I just don't have the appetite to red "hi-fi" publications anymore - what's the point, might just as well read advertising blurb from the suppliers.

I am enthused by music and audio technology and crave for new developments which make REAL progress, but must be verifiable or discernible progress. This all leads a nasty taste in the mouth.

Anyway, relax but on some music, listen and enjoy.

 

[snowsurfer]

Here are two examples (I can provide many more). These used to be available in both MQA and standard (non-MQA) FLAC, now only in MQA.

Itzhak Perlman, Paganini Caprices​

Astor Piazzolla, Zero Hour​

I never doubted that there may be some instances where this happens, but you wrote:

Now it seems that when an MQA version is published, it replaces the original FLAC (which becomes no longer available).

Which is absolutely NOT the case.

Editing to clarify that I am in no way in favour of MQA, but I use Tidal and still haven't had this happen with the music I listen to. I will be on the lookout though.

 

[awdeeoh]

Here are two examples (I can provide many more). These used to be available in both MQA and standard (non-MQA) FLAC, now only in MQA.

Itzhak Perlman, Paganini Caprices​

Astor Piazzolla, Zero Hour​

Well that's from Warner. I'm not surprised. Most 16/44.1 plain PCM are replaced with MQA if you read the news.

 

[JSmith]

Anyway, relax but on some music, listen and enjoy.

True... off home to spin a shiny disc with Nirvana Nevermind encoded upon.

No MQA, no high-res, no unfolding or audio origami... just the tunes.



JSmith