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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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Clavius

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Nobody forced anything on you,you have a choice of who you want to give your money too,people have been debating this for years,this isn't even a scientific study and it has flaws in it.


Having just read through 21 pages of this I’m surprised at the fervor and frequency which you defend corporate entities that demonstrably mislead consumers with the ‘sorry you feel shafted sucker - just take your business elsewhere’ excuse, and what’s with the ‘Jack’ idolizing ‘have a nice day’ Karen-esque approach - really?
 

dmac6419

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Having just read through 21 pages of this I’m surprised at the fervor and frequency which you defend corporate entities that demonstrably mislead consumers with the ‘sorry you feel shafted sucker - just take your business elsewhere’ excuse, and what’s with the ‘Jack’ idolizing ‘have a nice day’ Karen-esque approach - really?
Not defending anyone,just not agreeing, I think for myself, that said you own any MQA? and what does Jack have to do with this, most hate or hated Tidal and Beats because of who owned it,some will admit it outright some will hide behind B.S.,like I said it's a flawed study,it's his opinion (goldenone) I can play scientists too, put together graphs, grab schitt off the internet ,copy and paste it and tell you why you're an audiofool some will agree with it some won't.
 

Jimbob54

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The blue light tells you it's not been mangled in transit. But nothing about what abuse its been subjected to before that.

Where are all these file mangling gremlins lurking on the interwebs waiting for a perfectly good FLAC file to amble by for them to corrupt?
 

sq225917

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It really is this simple. If mqa claims it improve the "quality' of playback then they have two ways to prove it.

A. Perform a large double blind test and publish the results.

B. Provide a full set of repeatable measures showing improved fidelity to the source.

They've chosen to do neither. Which makes me think the claims are baseless. That they obfuscate the means by which anyone else might do this on their behalf pretty much tells me it's bullshit.
 

SKBubba

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The blue light tells you it's not been mangled in transit. But nothing about what abuse its been subjected to before that.

Where are all these file mangling gremlins lurking on the interwebs waiting for a perfectly good FLAC file to amble by for them to corrupt?

Also, FLAC already has an embedded checksum that can be used to detect if a file is corrupted.
 

mansr

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It really is this simple. If mqa claims it improve the "quality' of playback then they have two ways to prove it.

A. Perform a large double blind test and publish the results.

B. Provide a full set of repeatable measures showing improved fidelity to the source.

They've chosen to do neither. Which makes me think the claims are baseless. That they obfuscate the means by which anyone else might do this on their behalf pretty much tells me it's bullshit.
There was a test done at McGill university. Despite the method being rigged in favour of MQA, the outcome was inconclusive at best.
 

KeithPhantom

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I genuinely think it's sad that you value trolling and toxicity over discourse and education. Scoring internet points obviously brings you joy and who am I to say whether that's a good thing or a bad thing... but I lament the fact that your presence is so often a subtractive force on the quality of the conversation instead of a substantiative and engaging one.

To address your comment: there are plenty of ways to disagree with MQA as an approach, technology, and product, but accusing Bob of not doing the homework is blasphemous. He's an AES Life Fellow and a cursory search shows him credited as an author nearly 20 AES papers.
Do I read an appeal to authority? Remember, is no credentials who show that science is right, is facts.
 

AdamG

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Please don’t Feed the Trolls. They eat too much as it is and when they get fat they begin to cause structural damage to the Bridges they lurk under. :facepalm:
 

Tks

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Please don’t Feed the Trolls. They eat too much as it is and when they get fat they begin to cause structural damage to the Bridges they lurk under. :facepalm:

Worst part is, I'm still wondering just what their actual position is. The best I can muster in summary they seem to be the typical "don't knock it till you try it", but I'm not seeing anything apparent where they can use as evidence in support of the claims MQA purports it can deliver. With the other guy being also a DSD proponent claiming MQA isn't as good, but close, yet much better than redbook.

I'm guessing they also hold to the idea that all current demonstrations presented by OP are failures simply in virtue of the assertion that the encoder can detect 'non-real music' (begging questions about the threshold in which it is able to do so, and even how, if I were to insert a picosecond's worth of DSP, and it should produce identical encoder failure to where the entire music track gets polluted as OP's did even though he didn't have the entire track be simply test tones - remember, their red flag mechanism at least was good enough to detect that when he first tried to pass off pure test tones).

It's just a really comedic situation because I see a few nitpicks about certain here-or-there aspects (like the focus about square waves, yet leaving the entire rest of the arguments OP makes unaddressed). But I'm not actually seeing or hearing what their position even is. It simply seems to be an assertion that OP's experiment isn't conclusive of any and all concerns, thus MQA is great and delivers! Yet the company cucking back and forth in the shadows and for years not providing the simple access required to establish veracity of their product's claims -- that's somehow deemed as the more rational position, or at least the side that is rationally the one that should be defended. Especially hilarious given the usual scandals with corporations that eventually lead to shit like Tidal removing true lossless files as a result of MQA's slow encroachment. Like EVEN IF we had no technical evaluations of their MQA files ever (like imagine it was some magical file format that couldn't even be examined like some quantum anamoly), MQA's behavior alone is enough to not grant them benefit of the doubt.

In principal, if you had no idea what MQA does or how, agnosticism is the only sensibly rational position you can take at best. In practical reality, because MQA's behavior is such garbage, you have far more merit for hard skepticism of their claims, and dismissal of them actually - for as long as they keep cowering in the shadows and simply pontificating like lawyers in a court room where evidence isn't being disclosed to the other side the moment anyone like OP raises good reasons to assume their guilt in fraudulent contexts. Also practically concerning in the real world, where somehow MQA themselves concerned themselves of the ordeal to such a degree, they decided to act, and are somehow able to pressure the publisher and Tidal themselves in having someones work removed. If this wasn't a video (which at first it wasn't), they wouldn't seemingly care. But all of a sudden, they start responding..

Straight up perplexing at this point trying to surmize what it is these MQA defenders hold to. No idea if they're shills or whatever (doubt it personally), but they could stand to at least not use the post-hoc rationalization MQA themselves is using for their defense. It's hilarious when the hypocrisy kicks in, claiming OP's trying to wrongfully get his readers against MQA - yet MQA is pulling this takedown bullshit and as always, making nonsense claims that are dubious at best, but even if truly believed, would still be an instantiation of MQA trying to sway people to their ideas, and hiding whenever someone wants to properly have their claims tested.

I simply cannot understand for example how a file with some test tones present (with the rest being music) can entirely pollute the whole file, and this be an argument as to why the encoder failed and isn't mean't for OP's sort of submission to Tidal, but yet rationalize that the failure of the encoder to prevent such an issue in the audible band and music-portions of the file; as somehow a position that stands as a 'good' defense MQA itself.
 

dmac6419

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It is worth nothing that each of the major record labels, Sony, Universal and Warner Music, have an equity stake in Spotify,Tidal,maybe Qobuz,Deezer,etc
 

Noa HImesaka

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but MQA does not allow any "Full Unfolding" device to have a digital output.
Actually, there is a MQA Full Decoding DDC here. (maybe I2S only or might only work with their own DAC, I haven't tested it.) But it was only available in South Korea. (Now discontinued due to AKM factory fire and chip shortage caused by that.) I can provide you with more detail if you want. Also I asked to the manufacturer whether it supports MQA only with I2S with their DAC or other digital outputs also output unfolded data.

EDIT: I searched their previous answers about their DDC and MQA, they DO actually output unfolded MQA through S/PDIF though limited to 24bit/192kHz through S/PDIF. I2S outputs full 32bit/384kHz.
 

sq225917

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I had them all bagged as people who benefit financially from mqa, plain and simple. The tactics of divert and deflect are obvious.
 
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GoldenOne

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Actually, there is a MQA Full Decoding DDC here. (maybe I2S only or might only work with their own DAC, I haven't tested it.) But it was only available in South Korea. (Now discontinued due to AKM factory fire and chip shortage caused by that.) I can provide you with more detail if you want. Also I asked to the manufacturer whether it supports MQA only with I2S with their DAC or other digital outputs also output unfolded data.
There are some DDC's and streamers with MQA support, but they only do the first unfold.

If there IS one which does the full unfold and outputs 384khz i'd definitely love to hear about it! Do send me any info
 

Noa HImesaka

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There are some DDC's and streamers with MQA support, but they only do the first unfold.

If there IS one which does the full unfold and outputs 384khz i'd definitely love to hear about it! Do send me any info
They say they do the FULL DECODE (yes, full unfold) on their DDC, not just the first unfolding. The product is JAVS X7 DDC.
https://cafe.naver.com/javsaudio/2141 - the company (JAVS) say they do full unfold on their DDC in the comment section (in Korean)
https://cafe.naver.com/javsaudio/5862 - the company's answer to the output quality. Also in Korean.

EDIT: their X5 DDC also do full unfold if you want cheaper option.
EDIT 2: they also provide I2S pinout of their DDC. https://m.cafe.naver.com/javsaudio/109 (also in Korean)
 
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mansr

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There are some DDC's and streamers with MQA support, but they only do the first unfold.

If there IS one which does the full unfold and outputs 384khz i'd definitely love to hear about it! Do send me any info
It's easy enough to tap the I2S signals of any device. That's what I did with a few. Through reverse engineering, we also know exactly what a "renderer" does, i.e. upsampling using one of 16 predefined filters, if you can call them that.
 
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