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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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sq225917

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Video encoding isn't lossless, and doesn't claim to be, it's entirely perceptual, and as such different codes are less suitable for Edge cases, like anime where the reconstruction of narrow smooth high contrast lines is critical to the reproduced moving image quality.

So yes, a good comparison, mqa is like using the wrong video codec.
 
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If anything, this kills the MQA lossless claim. I know that your answer will be that MQA has admitted it is not lossless. However, you can't dispute that it is advertised as lossless by many, if not all, MQA partners (if not, at times, as better than lossless, closer to the intended experience).

That marketing is obviously misleading (to be kind), as demonstrated by the above.

I can't wait for MQA to reign in those misleading advertisers who are currently tarnishing its image.

Nobody in this thread (at least recently) is claiming that MQA is "lossless". It's valid to have an issue with some of the marketing and PR decisions but it's a dreadfully boring discussion considering the concept of digital domain losslessness is wholly incompatible with what they're trying to do.
 

PierreV

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Nobody in this thread (at least recently) is claiming that MQA is "lossless". It's valid to have an issue with some of the marketing and PR decisions but it's a dreadfully boring discussion considering the concept of digital domain losslessness is wholly incompatible with what they're trying to do.

Why do you suddenly care about what people say in this thread after saying it wasn't substantive?

But anyway, can we agree that they are trying to make a better lossy perceptual codec?
 

PierreV

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Note: I was editing live and added "lossy" - just mentioning it in case you think it was intentional.

So, if they are trying to develop a better perceptual lossy codec and charge for it, isn't it reasonable to expect the burden of proof to be on them as far as the benefits are concerned?

I see two ways in which they could do that

- some fully objective way as in providing lossless master samples, their encoded files and maybe some open competitor files and using a metric showing which files are closest to the original signal. In some fields I am familiar with some variation of MARD metrics would do the trick, but I am ready to accept other perceptually based metric. Unfortunately they don't seem to do that, quite the opposite in fact.

- some softer but still scientific approach, such as independent testing on users, not unlike what Harman did with speakers. We'd have a softer result, such as 78% of users prefer MQA or something similar. Unfortunately, they don't seem to do that.

The consequence of not doing this (and not allowing users to do this in an open but patent protected way à la MP3) is that the only material we have is their "unfortunate" marketing...
 

levimax

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So with MQA, we get the worst of both worlds (lossy with the bitrate of CD quality FLAC)? "Nice".

Don't forget watermarked like / DRM like files. Does anyone really believe that the record companies would go along with and invest in a scheme that claims to provide "better sound" if it didn't provide them more control over their content. Nothing wrong with that but it is not a consumer benefit certainly and not discussed beyond being denied without proof.
 

mieswall

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As said, I published a track that conformed to what MQA (from what they've said, including this triangle) deems 'natural'.
They nuked it.

I said in the video, I'm happy to update the posts etc if they send me the MQA version of that file and it is indeed much better than the others.
They have not done so.

If you disagree with my testing, then I would strongly encourage you to conduct your own.
The world would probably advance much faster if people spent as much time developing their own ideas as they did poking holes in things put forward by others.

No, you didn't. You conformed the formalities for uploading files, but not the substance, and so placed a hell of a lot of information OUTSIDE that triangle, where it is absolutely obvious MQA would perform bad, because is not intended to process that type of information. Which would matter a lot if MQA were an algorithm aimed to compress a massive database or astro photography, but not as it is: a procedure specifically designed, not to "compress", but to "package" high resolution MUSIC files (and to correct time domain information of it, issue ironically "blurred" with your misleading data).

No, I won't conduct other testing: I don't have the means, but mostly I'm not questioning the claims of MQA. I do point to flawed tests like the one you did (and Archimago before you, having similar problems). There are a LOT of other issues in it, but the ones already mentioned are, imho, strong enough and in need of a disclaimer from your part, which I think you will not be able to do it, because these are objective facts.
 

Mountain Goat

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Nobody in this thread (at least recently) is claiming that MQA is "lossless". It's valid to have an issue with some of the marketing and PR decisions but it's a dreadfully boring discussion considering the concept of digital domain losslessness is wholly incompatible with what they're trying to do.

Current page on Tidal's site:

1618690858812.png

https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002599997-What-Audio-Quality-Does-TIDAL-HiFi-Offer-
 
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