Music: how loud is loud? (video)

[testp]

some topics just makes everyone go crazy, go figure..

 

[rxp]

In the movie world I became really obsessed with getting to the bottom of this. I found a way of digitally measuring sound levels of movies that I were concerned were too loud at reference. Here are my results on a couple of posts in this thread : https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=17911587&postcount=342

TL;DR - movies listened to at reference aren't going to make you go deaf. Not even Michael Bay at reference

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

@amirm Great explanation, thank you!

Curious question, regarding the ability to measure peak SPL:
REW gives out a L(Z) peak value and it defines it as "minimum, maximum and unweighted peak levels." according to the help file.

Any idea how accurate that value is, when measuring with a calibrated UMIK-1?

PS: tell me about pianos being loud... whenever my teacher plays anything beyond mf, I always cover my ears. Too much Grand for too little room in my music school.

 

[PresbyByrd]

That was super helpful. Thanks!

 

[RichB]

@amirm Great explanation, thank you!

Curious question, regarding the ability to measure peak SPL:
REW gives out a L(Z) peak value and it defines it as "minimum, maximum and unweighted peak levels." according to the help file.

Any idea how accurate that value is, when measuring with a calibrated UMIK-1?

PS: tell me about pianos being loud... whenever my teacher plays anything beyond mf, I always cover my ears. Too much Grand for too little room in my music school.

Along this line, is a Fluke 87V fast enough to capture the maximum voltage.

I think we are both looking for a way to remove the hand-waving

Since most of us are using digital files, it is possible to set the AVR/AVP (using dB scale) to determine the 2.83 voltage volume. Based on your speaker efficiency the volume at 1 meter can be used as a baseline. For example, -31 produced 2.83 volts playing a 0dBFS sine-wave.
It is now possible to determine the maximum voltage produced at any volume setting, and therefore the dBSPL produced at one meter.
This works for speakers.

- Rich

 

[ironhorse128]

Another excellent video from Amir.

Wish I had more time and patience to really work through all that material in more detail. Too bad I have a full time job and a family

 

[Spocko]

There are some great titles with very low bass, but the trend from the Major studios has been to start rolling off bass at 30Hz.
You'd expect Godzilla V Kong, as put in Braveheart heavy horse, to "Shake the very ground".

The answer for the bass-heads is found in this thread where equalization is provided per title to restore low/subsonic bass.

(21) Bass EQ for Filtered Movies | Page 881 | AVS Forum

View attachment 123973

The dotted lines are before applying "restorative" bass equalization.

As you say, there are good titles out there as well.

- Rich

Totally confused by this - what is the business case for rolling off below 30Hz?

 

[Spocko]

In the movie world I became really obsessed with getting to the bottom of this. I found a way of digitally measuring sound levels of movies that I were concerned were too loud at reference. Here are my results on a couple of posts in this thread : https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=17911587&postcount=342

TL;DR - movies listened to at reference aren't going to make you go deaf. Not even Michael Bay at reference

I'm wondering if theaters pump the volume above reference because they have no clue what they're doing? I find some movie theaters to be way too loud on some action movies.

 

[DualTriode]

Hello All,

To make my house a happy home I bought one of these. It sits on the side table with the DVD and AVR remote controls.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KKQI2H6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My wife walks in the room to complain about it being too loud, I hand her the remote and the sound level meter.

For those that care it is not the peak levels that are important it is the 8 Hour Time Weighted Average that creeps up on you.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Hello All,

To make my house a happy home I bought one of these. It sits on the side table with the DVD and AVR remote controls.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KKQI2H6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My wife walks in the room to complain about it being too loud, I hand her the remote and the sound level meter.

For those that care it is not the peak levels that are important it is the 8 Hour Time Weighted Average that creeps up on you.

I have shown my wife meter readings with numbers within safe level........ she still says my music is too loud.
; )

 

[RichB]

Totally confused by this - what is the business case for rolling off below 30Hz?

My local Showcase cinema was originally 4 gigantic theatres, built in the 80's.
It is now 16 or so small venues, and low bass is more difficult to block.

I would not be surprised if cinemas prefer less LFE.
I can't remember when I last heard amazing bass in a cinema.

There are some animated and direct to streaming titles that have good extension to 20Hz and below.

- Rich

 

[Dave Tremblay]

The biggest problem here is precision of the words we're all using. Average dB SPL is what most people measure and are keyed into. Depending on individuals, of course, recording studios often playback between 85-95dB Average SPL. This is pretty loud, in my opinion. I don't think I could listen above 88dB Average SPL all day. But Amir's point is well taken, when looking at distortion we need to look at Peak SPL, which is often 10-20dB above Average SPL.

This is pretty consistent with my loudspeaker preferences. I tend to favor more efficient loudspeakers that can play with ease at 110dB @1m with low distortion. I'd never listen at that average level, but I like hearing the dynamic peaks without compression or distortion. I also recognize that, as Amir mentioned in the video, that music tends to have a "pink" frequency response characteristic, which means I could easily be hitting peak bass levels up at 115dB, with my preferred average SPL of 85dB. Most speakers can't reach those levels and I notice it right away. In my opinion, this is the biggest oversight when using just spinorama data for preference scores. That is why I like to read the speaker reviews here as the limits are clear in the distortion graphs.

Speakers don't make great musical compressors or limiters.

 

[RichB]

I'm wondering if theaters pump the volume above reference because they have no clue what they're doing? I find some movie theaters to be way too loud on some action movies.

I took my kids to a Dolby cinema to watch ROGUE ONE: A STAR WARS STORY.
The Dolby cinema included butt shakers and laser projection for deeper blacks.

We hated it. There was small stadium seating.
It was too loud and not much bass, but our butts were shaken.
The laser bounced light from the bottom of my popcorn onto my lap (weird) and the image had dancing pixel artifacts.

The Showcase cinema uses Sony digital projectors and has extra wide full recliners.
My family prefers this.

- Rich

 

[Spocko]

I took my kids to a Dolby cinema to watch ROGUE ONE: A STAR WARS STORY.
...
It was too loud and not much bass, but our butts were shaken.
- Rich

THIS! I guess they're replacing 25Hz bass with butt shaking as it doesn't move between walls

 

[Dave Tremblay]

I use an iOS app pretty commonly to get a sense of SPL. It's called SPL Pro, and it has slow, fast, and peak SPL meter. I wouldn't use it professionally, but it is handy to have when you're in a loud room and are just curious. I use it a lot at the yearly NAMM show.

 

[RayDunzl]

Curious question, regarding the ability to measure peak SPL:
REW gives out a L(Z) peak value and it defines it as "minimum, maximum and unweighted peak levels." according to the help file.

Any idea how accurate that value is, when measuring with a calibrated UMIK-1?

Probably as accurate (in absolute dB) as the calibration.

If you measure slow, or fast, vs peak, for a steady tone, the difference is 3dB, which I believe is correct.

I presume the software just looks at the digitized wave to determine the peak.

---

Example in Audacity, RMS = -9dB, peak = -6dB, 3dB difference.

More math required for the RMS or timed average of a music signal, but peak would still correspond to the highest pressure level received, without regard to any particular frequency.


REW Manual:

"The SPL Meter is an integrating, logging sound level meter that displays sound pressure level, equivalent sound level or sound exposure level based on the RMS level of the input channel.

It offers A, C and Z weightings, fast or slow exponential filters, a high pass filter to suppress wind noise, and records minimum, maximum and unweighted peak levels.

The meter takes into account both the soundcard and microphone calibration files and corrects its readings accordingly, allowing IEC class 0 performance when used with a calibrated microphone and SPL calibrator."

---

IEC Class 0:

"The older standards for sound level meters had different levels of tolerances with the tightest known as Type 0, with Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3 progressively looser in terms of the tolerances allowed. It is generally easier to make a measurement instrument meet wider tolerances and this is usually reflected in the price. A Type 1 sound level meter would usually have been more expensive than the equivalent Type 2 version.

Type 0 was often only used for very accurate laboratory standard instruments whereas Type 3 was considered potentially too inaccurate for use in any situation where measurements may need to be repeated."

---

Maybe the manual needs an update, but the accuracy of the software should be good.

 

[Clanseven]

If I am uncomfortable with the SPL I am experiencing, I turn down the volume if available, or distance my self from the source.
In my view, all Amir has done here is very clearly pointed out the disparity between the reality of SPL values and the perception of SPL values by the vast majority. He has presented the facts. The bottom line is, as far as I'm concerned, it is not for anyone to say to another that they are listening to music too loud. It is a personal choice, based on personal preferences, tolerances, health, age etc. I value my hearing and take sensible precautions if and when I think it's required.
I have only recently discovered this site and so far it has been an invaluable source of information and interesting discussion and I truly value it's existence.

 

[Robbo99999]

Hello All,

To make my house a happy home I bought one of these. It sits on the side table with the DVD and AVR remote controls.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KKQI2H6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

My wife walks in the room to complain about it being too loud, I hand her the remote and the sound level meter.

For those that care it is not the peak levels that are important it is the 8 Hour Time Weighted Average that creeps up on you.

Damn, I bet your wife loves you....she gets to calibrate her complaints to a sound level meter!

 

[rxp]

I'm wondering if theaters pump the volume above reference because they have no clue what they're doing? I find some movie theaters to be way too loud on some action movies.

Audioholics had a great video with Matt, who's an exceptional communicator on this stuff (

). He took a trip to the Dolby cinema with a calibrated SPL meter and reports no issue as far as averages go (82dbA average for Frozen). But he does mention that it's a kids movie and the amount of speakers a Dolby Atmos theater has is really throwing off calibrations.

 

[Spocko]

Audioholics had a great video with Matt, who's an exceptional communicator on this stuff (

). He took a trip to the Dolby cinema with a calibrated SPL meter and reports no issue as far as averages go (82dbA average for Frozen). But he does mention that it's a kids movie and the amount of speakers a Dolby Atmos theater has is really throwing off calibrations.

Agreed, I am a big fan of @Matthew J Poes and the content he produces for Audioholics, this being one of them!