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Roger Sanders' views on audio: The discussion thread

dallasjustice

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I´d like to refer you to :

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

Fig. 9 , page 8 from the pdf

@oivavoi,

just a short note; Geddes only objects to the use of omnis in small rooms for the reasons that you mentioned, i.e. that strong early reflections coming from the frontal plane (in short, so blame just me for incorrectness) could/would make the "imaging" less precise.
In general he has concerns about the colorations due to non uniformly polar directivity (beside the imaging) and as an perfect (or near perfect) omni has a uniform polar map he wouldn´t object _if_ the reflections from the front were down in level or absent or late in comparison to the direct sound.
Geddes advocates constant directivity. A speaker that "beams" is a speaker whose directivity narrows as the frequencies get higher. This is what an ESL looks like off axis. Anyone can see that Sanders' ESL speakers are anything but a CD speaker.
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/reviews/stereophile_inner-eros-mk3.htm

beaming speaker.PNG
 
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Cosmik

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He has an outside car garage which has room to park 2 cars ... So when I was sitting in the chair and with garage door wide open I was looking at the outside (beautiful mountain area).
The mountain view might influence one's perception of the sound I think..!

And it then makes me wonder about the 'near field listening chair' you linked to a while ago @oivavoi . If the ultimate sound comes from sitting in a carefully positioned chair 12 feet from some beaming speakers in an empty garage, then it wouldn't be all that ridiculous to sit in a chair with two speakers mounted a foot or two in front of you. One of the advantages of listening to speakers is, for me, its compatibility with ordinary, relaxed living. If you are prepared to forego that and strap yourself in a chair, then hi-fi should become an awful lot easier and cheaper :)
 

Purité Audio

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An open garage is probably as good a place as any for dipoles .
Keith
 
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oivavoi

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One of the advantages of listening to speakers is, for me, its compatibility with ordinary, relaxed living. If you are prepared to forego that and strap yourself in a chair, then hi-fi should become an awful lot easier and cheaper :)

Very much agree. That's part of the reason why I've never grown accustomed to bulky audiophile room treatments for example, or enormous gear stacks that are placed conspicuously in plain sight right between the speakers. It makes me focus on the gear or the "sound" itself, rather than on the music. The more artificial the listening situation is, the less I tend to accept the illusion. It's also why I think it can be helpful for the stereo illusion to look out at a nice view between the speakers. It helps fool the brain into forgetting that music is coming out of two boxes.

(I'm spending way too much time commenting here today btw... I have a looming deadline at work and I'm procrastinating heavily, that's why)
 

Thomas savage

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Very much agree. That's part of the reason why I've never grown accustomed to bulky audiophile room treatments for example, or enormous gear stacks that are placed conspicuously in plain sight right between the speakers. This makes me focus on the gear or the "sound" itself, rather than on the music. The more artificial the listening situation is, the less I tend to accept the illusion. It's also why I think it can be helpful for the stereo illusion to look out at a nice view between the speakers. It helps fool the brain into forgetting that music is coming out of two boxes.

(I'm spending way too much time commenting here today btw... I have a looming deadline at work and I'm procrastinating heavily, that's why)

Ha ha , the forums your chief avoidance strategy. I think a good few folks use ‘hifi’ ( not music ) as a kind of avoidance strategy .
 

amirm

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I listen to Sanders speakers at every audio show. They sound really good on some content. The problem I have with them is that you always hear the signature of the speakers over the music. Everything sounds large, tall, etc. when they shouldn't.

Roger writes extremely well though. I really like his articles (which he wrote for us in another forum) on electronics, and general audio topics.
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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I listen to Sanders speakers at every audio show. They sound really good on some content. The problem I have with them is that you always hear the signature of the speakers over the music. Everything sounds large, tall, etc. when they shouldn't.

Roger writes extremely well though. I really like his articles (which he wrote for us in another forum) on electronics, and general audio topics.

Interesting, Amir!

Maybe you know this: Does the assumed advantage of electrostats with regards to distortion and transients hold up? Has it been conclusive proved or disproved in comparativev loudspeaker measurements?
 

Blumlein 88

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1) "Roger Sanders makes the best loudspeakers in the world".

No he doesn't. Not even the best electrostat. I say that having owned 4 sets of ESL's, and having heard several more including Sanders.



2) "A S.O.T.A. speaker must use an electrostatic midrange".
The reason he provides: "The reason that electrostatic speakers are so good is that they are the only type of midrange driver that has essentially no moving mass. Magnetic speakers simply cannot match the performance of electrostatics in the midrange because they are heavy so cannot be accelerated quickly and accurately at treble frequencies"

No/Yes/Maybe F=ma Just because something is light doesn't mean you can move it faster. Depends upon the details. The modern diaphragm mylar is barely more dense than air itself. Electrostats do have typically very high quality midrange because of very low distortion which is related to something he should have mentioned. You are applying the sound over a far larger surface area. The surface SPL intensity is far lower on a esl panel. Think of a single bright spotlight and the same amount of light spread over a wide panel. Ultimately an esl might be SOTA on the midrange, but the wide panel brings its own problem of directivity being wrong.

Now the Quad ESL 63 did something smart with the delayed concentric rings driving the panel to act like a semi-point source. If a modern version of that with more sophistication and more rings were used you could have it all. A large midrange panel for low surface intensity at near the density of the air for amplifier level low distortion and directivity that could be precisely controlled. Done correctly it would have close to zero drawbacks. You also could do a long tall line source with vertical segmenting. To my knowledge no one has done this yet.

And finally will that be better than top quality midrange domes? I don't know, it might.



3) "Magnetic woofers have many problems with their enclosures that cause them to produce with a lot of overshoot and ringing that makes it impossible for them to integrate well with a massless electrostatic speaker".

Quite often yes. Things have gotten better, and I wouldn't say impossible. Some servo controlled subs have managed to work just fine. Plus, one of my main complaints about the Sanders is the woofer stuck out like a sore thumb. Not as badly as some early ML hybrids, but enough I couldn't ignore it. I've integrated active subs better than Sanders does.


4) "The solution is to use a transmission line enclosure system to virtually eliminate overshoot and ringing in the woofer".

No. I've built a few transmission line speakers. I like them and they were very good for DIY back when we didn't have much instrumentation. Now I don't know they are the best bargain and certainly not the only one that can be made to work well.


5) "No speaker can be considered S.O.T.A. if it uses a passive crossover. All speakers will perform better when driven by active crossovers and individual amplifiers for each of their drivers".
Yes/maybe. Active speakers and one amp per driver are better for sure. Can you build a speaker with passive crossover that will be audibly equivalent? Probably or maybe. However, I do agree serious speakers should be all active. The problem is the market for those. You have to have a market to have a successful product.


6) "Loudspeakers are the most important component in your system. All are seriously flawed. You should put most of your money and effort into getting the best ones you can".

YES!


7) "Rooms interact with loudspeakers to seriously degrade the sound. It is essential to deal with this problem using proper positioning, room treatment, and DSP".

Yes.


8) "The distortion from a Class A amplifier is no lower than in a Class AB amplifier. So there is absolutely no reason to use Class A anymore"

Audibly yes.


9) "I do not consider switch mode (Class D) amplifiers to be high fidelity devices". (for full bandwith)
Reason: "This is because they do not have linear frequency response. Their high frequency response depends on the character of the load (the loudspeaker). Therefore they must be specifically adjusted to your specific speaker to have linear frequency response. Because woofers do not reproduce high frequencies, switch mode amps are excellent for driving woofers (which require a lot of power)".

NO!

10) "Digital recording media [and digital playback] is flawless. By comparison, analog is very poor".

Effectively yes.


11) "As long as you use a data rate of 192 KBPS or higher, you cannot hear any difference between an MP3 recording and the original source".
Absolutely no.

12) "DSP systems are extremely powerful and effective tools. They can improve all audio systems and every audiophile should use them".
[Sanders uses it for crossover and speaker eq, and recommends room correction in the bass but not in higher frequencies]

Yes I agree.


13) "There is no such thing as too much power"
Reason: "It is easy to show that most speaker systems require about 500 watts to play musical peaks cleanly. Most audiophiles use amps with far less power. Therefore audiophiles are comparing clipping amps most of the time".

Yes and no. I agree lots of power is very good. But you can be ridiculous. Try some 1000 watt amps with your K-horns and let me know how the noise goes there. Things need to be properly gain and power matched. So this statement is over-simplified.

14) "Components that meet the Basic Quality Criteria (BQC) for high fidelity sound always sound identical to each other".
He mentions this as the basic quality criteria: "1) Inaudible noise levels (a S/N of 86 dB or better is required), 2) Inaudible wow and flutter (less than 0.01%) 3) Linear frequency response across the audio bandwidth (20 Hz - 20 KHz +/- 0.1 dB), 4) Harmonic distortion of less than 1%"

I might draw the line in slightly different places, but in principle I agree Yes.


15) "You must do ABX testing to obtain valid results from listening tests".

For the most part yes. Not everyone needs to do them at home however. In fact people should only do enough of them (maybe only once) to convince themselves they work at discriminating differences well. Or to show their golden ears aren't. After that matched level comparisons are good enough for many purposes if one keeps in mind how one can get fooled. Plus using what we know about hearing limits already. Often we've no need for ABX for most claims if they are well examined.


And for the record I've owned Acoustats, Quad ESL57s, Quad ESL63s and currently Soundlabs. Plus I've heard a few other stats that friends have owned. And owned/heard various Maggies which are panels, but not electrostats.
 

amirm

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Maybe you know this: Does the assumed advantage of electrostats with regards to distortion and transients hold up? Has it been conclusive proved or disproved in comparativev loudspeaker measurements?
No, it has been the opposite with at least Martin Logan. In double blind tests they do poorly and their measurements show resonances that are problematic.
 
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oivavoi

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1) "Roger Sanders makes the best loudspeakers in the world".
No he doesn't. Not even the best electrostat. I say that having owned 4 sets of ESL's, and having heard several more including Sanders.
(...)
And for the record I've owned Acoustats, Quad ESL57s, Quad ESL63s and currently Soundlabs. Plus I've heard a few other stats that friends have owned. And owned/heard various Maggies which are panels, but not electrostats.

Thank you!! You easily win the prize for the best and most educational reply in the thread so far.
 

Blumlein 88

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Martin Logan waterfall

117MLRenfig6.jpg


Another ML waterfall plot.
912Montisfig7.jpg


Revel Salon 2 waterfall plot.

708Revfig10.jpg


Magico waterfall.

217MagS52fig7.jpg

A different model Magico Waterfall plot.

508Magfig8.jpg


Early Sanders Eros waterfall looking better than ML
Erofig13.jpg


Quad 989.

quad989fig8.jpg


Sanders Innersound Kaya.

Kayfig11.jpg


Soundlab A1 Kinda yucky.

666SLA1JAfig06.jpg
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Thanks, @Blumlein 88 . So effectively both tbe Salon 2s and the Magicos store much less energy than the MLs, which is the exact opposite of what the theory on the ESL advantage would imply. EDIT: saw you added the earlier Sanders models, which seem to store less energy than the MLs. Still rather comparable to the Revels and Magicos.
 
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RayDunzl

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Does the assumed advantage of electrostats with regards to distortion and transients hold up? Has it been conclusive proved or disproved in comparativev loudspeaker measurements?

I have one example:

JBL LSR 308 vs Martin Logan reQuest

upload_2018-4-11_15-34-39.png


The harmonic distortion can be easily heard.

And third harmonic on a sine log sweep:

upload_2018-4-11_15-37-20.png


A better cone/dome speaker will perform with less obvious difference. The JBL crosses from its 8" woofer and midrange to the tweeter at 1.7khz. Above that, the third harmonic is much less pronounced.

Oh, one more example. Infinity P-363 (three way), which has a better midrange, but maybe a lesser tweeter:

upload_2018-4-11_15-50-34.png


And one more... My buddy has a pair of Martin Logan CLS at his house (blue) vs my reQuests (green)

upload_2018-4-11_15-54-24.png
 
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Blumlein 88

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Thanks, @Blumlein 88 . So effectively both tbe Salon 2s and the Magicos store much less energy than the MLs, which is the exact opposite of what the theory on the ESL advantage would imply.

Well yes, but I added some other plots after your reply. Sorry, didn't intend to trip anyone up. The Sanders speakers seem to have less of an issue than other ESLs. The Salon and Magico shows conventional speakers can be quite exceptional. And there are several more brands of conventional speakers that do well on the decay aspect.
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Well yes, but I added some other plots after your reply. Sorry, didn't intend to trip anyone up. The Sanders speakers seem to have less of an issue than other ESLs. The Salon and Magico shows conventional speakers can be quite exceptional. And there are several more brands of conventional speakers that do well on the decay aspect.

Interesting. No way to measure this at home, right, necessitates an anechoic chamber?
 

Blumlein 88

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Interesting. No way to measure this at home, right, necessitates an anechoic chamber?
REW will do it. But I do think JA does this outdoors or something which would be better without reflections from indoors. We just need for Ray to take his M-Ls outside and run the test. :)
 

RayDunzl

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What's CSD?

Ok, read the description in REW...

"In addition to the standard waterfall mode, which slides the window along the impulse response, there is a CSD (Cumulative Spectral Decay) mode, which anchors the right hand end of the window at a fixed point and only moves the left side, which is useful when examining cabinet or tweeter resonances over very short time spans. This does mean, however, that the frequency resolution reduces (and the lowest frequency that can be generated increases) as the slices progress, as each has a slightly shorter total window width than the previous slice."
 
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RayDunzl

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But how do you distinguish the CSD of the speakers themselves and the room? Might be a stupid question.

The time looks to be so short as to prevent the room from responding yet.
 
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