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Should I be here, I don't think I'm an audiophile

Yorkshire Mouth

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So, what's an audiophile?

Amir briefly touched in this in one of his videos, he distinguished audiophiles from music lovers.

Well, I'm a music lover, but one who wants his music to sound as good as possible (within certain parameters, like cash), so is that audiophile?

I see people refer to being an audiophile as a hobby. I believe the same people are those who constantly spend money changing one piece of kit for another. Well, that's definitely not me. I want to buy the best that I can afford, in the hope that it'll last years, and only upgrade when the world has moved on enough that I can replace what I have without breaking the bank, and get a significant upgrade.

In (I think) the same video Amir talked about using his skill, knowledge and experience to identify any possible weaknesses, even if most people wouldn't hear it themselves, on the grounds that he wouldn't want to hear something, not point it out as most others wouldn't, recommend the product, and then have complaints from those who've followed his recommendation and who do hear the issue. I think that's fair enough. Elsewhere, Amir has talked about identifying differences (I think between 16 & 24 bit) by playing a small 1 or 2 second section over and over.

Is that what being an audiophile is? Or just an audiophile reviewer?

I'm not dissing anyone. People get pleasure, sometimes in very expensive ways, from some crazy hobbies. It's not my job to tell you what to do with your money!
 

RayDunzl

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Is that what being an audiophile is?

audiophile
noun [ C ]
US /ˈɑː.di.oʊ.faɪl/ UK /ˈɔː.di.əʊ.faɪl/

a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality
 

Another Bob

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AFAIK, an audiophile is just someone who is interested in the science/technology/art/process of sound reproduction. You can be an audiophile without owning a single piece of equipment, although that is certainly not the norm.
 

Koeitje

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I just want the music I play to sound good. Does that make me an audiophile?
 

eddantes

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Speaking for myself:
  • Love music
  • Love music even more when it sounds fantastic
  • Became curious as to what makes music sound fantastic
  • Went through a period of trial and error to determine the above - read as: spent lots of money and equipment swapping
  • Recognized that without objective data my perception wasn't trustworthy as it would change over time
  • Began learning about the science behind audio reporduction. Eventually finding the work of Floyd Toole
  • Recognized that the missgivings I had about my subjective qualification were supported by data
  • Decided to ensure that my subjective impressions are supported by objective data - read as: still swapping equipment and spending lots of money
Ahhh the circle of life!
 

JustJones

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I don't think being an audiophile is required to be here. It says members who like to discuss audio and related topics.
 

Thomas savage

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So, what's an audiophile?

Amir briefly touched in this in one of his videos, he distinguished audiophiles from music lovers.

Well, I'm a music lover, but one who wants his music to sound as good as possible (within certain parameters, like cash), so is that audiophile?

I see people refer to being an audiophile as a hobby. I believe the same people are those who constantly spend money changing one piece of kit for another. Well, that's definitely not me. I want to buy the best that I can afford, in the hope that it'll last years, and only upgrade when the world has moved on enough that I can replace what I have without breaking the bank, and get a significant upgrade.

In (I think) the same video Amir talked about using his skill, knowledge and experience to identify any possible weaknesses, even if most people wouldn't hear it themselves, on the grounds that he wouldn't want to hear something, not point it out as most others wouldn't, recommend the product, and then have complaints from those who've followed his recommendation and who do hear the issue. I think that's fair enough. Elsewhere, Amir has talked about identifying differences (I think between 16 & 24 bit) by playing a small 1 or 2 second section over and over.

Is that what being an audiophile is? Or just an audiophile reviewer?

I'm not dissing anyone. People get pleasure, sometimes in very expensive ways, from some crazy hobbies. It's not my job to tell you what to do with your money!
Don't worry about labels.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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It's not really all that much of an issue. You like music? You like gear that allows you to listen to music to the extent that you read about gear and watch vids on youtube about gear and try and find gear that provides good audio reproduction? Hey you're an audiophile! Congrats!
 
OP
Yorkshire Mouth

Yorkshire Mouth

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Don't worry about labels.

I don't. They could call this forum Arthur Shagnasty's Listening Booth, I'd still tune in to the discussion.

But words mean things. I'm not bothered about the word. I'm bothered about the meaning. I'm bothered about what Amir's trying to do, what people who post here are trying to do, to see if it's the same, or if there's some crossover with what I'm trying to do.

One more thing Amir mentioned, I think in a video where he was being interviewed by someone else. He was talking about limits at which a particular issue was audible. He goes for -115 dB, someone else he mentioned goes for -90 dB or so, and he said he thinks that's pretty much valid.. I think Amir said most people wouldn't hear anything below -70 or -80 dB, or something similar, in normal listening conditions.

I'd love for Amir to give products a pass/fail based on these lower limits as well as the top end.

I agree with his idea that he needs to warn about problems a small few might encounter. But surely it's also pertinent to point out where most of us would sit with this.

If 80%-90% wouldn't tell the difference between a DAC costing £100, and its big brother costing £250, surely that's worth a mention.
 

eddantes

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I think you're missing the point...

"Objective" evaluation uses data and Amir does the hard work to acquire the data that we can't (spending hundreds of thousands on equipment, for one) or wont do.

The intepretation of that data - is left to us, the audience. Naturaly, Amir provides his own interpretation - but we are in no way obligated to accept it - which is why the data makes up most of the review.

It's up to you to determine if you can tell the differrence between the $100 dac and the $2000 dac - but now you have the data to validate/refute your subjective evaluation.

I, despite having a great interest in the subject and being able to follow some of the science, do not posses hearing that is acurate enough to identify some of the small differences. But that does not prevent me from being curious and making decisions that use the objective data.

Science does not require belief, it offers data for peer review. You're the "peer" - make of it what you will, but be prepared to have to reconcile with data that may not support your hypothesis.
 

Gorgonzola

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Speaking for myself:
  • Love music
  • Love music even more when it sounds fantastic
  • Became curious as to what makes music sound fantastic
  • Went through a period of trial and error to determine the above - read as: spent lots of money and equipment swapping
  • Recognized that without objective data my perception wasn't trustworthy as it would change over time
  • Began learning about the science behind audio reporduction. Eventually finding the work of Floyd Toole
  • Recognized that the missgivings I had about my subjective qualification were supported by data
  • Decided to ensure that my subjective impressions are supported by objective data - read as: still swapping equipment and spending lots of money
Ahhh the circle of life!
All highly valid points which, I like to think, pertain to me. On the other hand, in my fifty year exposure to audiophiles, it's only the first four points that apply to the majority of audiophiles as encountered on typical audiophile forums.

"Trust you ears" is the favourite maxim of a majority self-professed audiophiles. In other words they don't care about measurements and never question their subjective impressions -- and are proud of themselves on that account, and disdainful of those who are influenced at all by measurements.

Where this has led these typical audiophiles is down a garden path of euphonic distortion of the type delivered, notably, by tube equipment. When it's pointed out to them that such equipment has distortion in many cases delivering >1% harmonic distortion, they say they just don't care because the music sounds more "organic", "liquid", and "musical". Sensible folk understand that these are completely subjective & unmeasurable attributes.

For my part I know that well-measuring equipment sound more accurate, i.e. more like the music producers & engineers intended. On any good record the result is sublime. Granted there are many mediocre and down-right poor recordings, but I don't look to my equipment to mask the shortcomings of bad recordings. Equipment that does that, IMO, also masks the excellence of good recordings.
 

Jimbob54

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I hate the label and wouldnt choose to describe myself as one. But, per the definition Ray posted, and the fact we are both here says we are.

I may browse auto sites when researching a new car purchase but I doubt I'd create an account or go back post purchase. So I'm not a car geek. But I must be an audio geek.
 

Thomas savage

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I don't. They could call this forum Arthur Shagnasty's Listening Booth, I'd still tune in to the discussion.

But words mean things. I'm not bothered about the word. I'm bothered about the meaning. I'm bothered about what Amir's trying to do, what people who post here are trying to do, to see if it's the same, or if there's some crossover with what I'm trying to do.

One more thing Amir mentioned, I think in a video where he was being interviewed by someone else. He was talking about limits at which a particular issue was audible. He goes for -115 dB, someone else he mentioned goes for -90 dB or so, and he said he thinks that's pretty much valid.. I think Amir said most people wouldn't hear anything below -70 or -80 dB, or something similar, in normal listening conditions.

I'd love for Amir to give products a pass/fail based on these lower limits as well as the top end.

I agree with his idea that he needs to warn about problems a small few might encounter. But surely it's also pertinent to point out where most of us would sit with this.

If 80%-90% wouldn't tell the difference between a DAC costing £100, and its big brother costing £250, surely that's worth a mention.

Oh the royal they lol I bet Arthur has some stories to tell, nasty twerking booties is what we all have is it lol

The idea here is to provide the public with data thats independent of commercial industry interest, trustworthy and robust.

Then help people understand that data, its up to individuals to decide if thats of value to them .

If it is they can read and now watch on YouTube freely if not they can about face and find something else to do .

Why do you need amirm to pass and fail products , he looks for excellence, one is free to set their own requirements for ' what will do ' based on any information they wish to place value apon , from here or any other place .
 
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Yorkshire Mouth

Yorkshire Mouth

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Oh the royal they lol I bet Arthur has some stories to tell.

The idea here is to provide the public with data thats independent of commercial industry interest, trustworthy and robust.

Then help people understand that data, its up to individuals to decide if thats of value to them .

If it is they can read and now watch on YouTube freely if not they can about face and find something else to do .

Why do you need Amir to pass and fail products , he looks for excellence, one is free to set their own requirements for ' what will do ' based on any information they wish to place value apon , from here or any other place .

Okay, taking that to its logical conclusion, why have a pass/fail, or any commentary at all?

I think the other points I raise are equally scientifically valid. If Amir finds that -115dB is the limit for people being able to hear distortion in the most demanding of circumstances, he's absolutely right to point it out, and use that as a pass/fail threshold, I have no criticism.

But if he also knows that people can only hear that distortion at -90 dB (or wherever) in normal listening (sitting and listening to a 4 minute track at normal volume), then isn't that just as valid a pass/fail mark, indeed even more so?

One is not more scientifically valid than the other. Amir regularly cites published scholarly, scientific articles which discuss the differences most people can hear in normal listening.
 
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Yorkshire Mouth

Yorkshire Mouth

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And that is how Diana Krall sells records.

I can never understand why we have such a thing as audiophile record labels which record audiophile music.

You can't dig Hendrix or Lennon up to re-record, produce, mix and distribute their classics in an audiophile manner.

If someone farts, and that sound is captured and reproduced in the best audio quality known to man, some people would buy it.
 
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