• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

righthookmike

Active Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2021
Messages
109
Likes
37
Location
South Florida
The DAC in question had terrible measurements!!!!!!! What are you arguing?????
Two facts , proven by the strictest of criteria required by ASR that make further discussion of this post tedious , repetitive, and boring
!. I was wrong about the model of DAC I said I had
2. the model DAC I did have was measured here and had terrible measurements that should be easy to distinguish from a discrete DAC
 
Last edited:

HiFidFan

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
723
Likes
906
Location
U.S.A
The DAC in question had terrible measurements!!!!!!! What are you arguing?????
Two facts , proven by the strictest of criteria required by ASR that make further discussion of this post tedious , repetitive, and boring
!. I was wrong about the model of DAC I said I had
2. the model DAC I did have was measured here and had terrible measurements that should be easy to distinguish from a discrete DAC

What DAC are we talking about again?
 

righthookmike

Active Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2021
Messages
109
Likes
37
Location
South Florida
There is, though I personally don't like either. I think it's possible to disagree or dismiss claims without teasing or lambasting.

I just disagree with folks saying we should take every extraordinary claim with no controlled evidence seriously.
please provide evidence that somebody said that
 

righthookmike

Active Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2021
Messages
109
Likes
37
Location
South Florida
I think @BDWoody is doing a great job of trying to get the newcomers to understand what kind of evidence would be acceptable here. It's important for someone who wants to be considered seriously to come here with more than the "I hear it therefore it must be true" attitude. Not everything is cut and dry in audio, there are still plenty of areas where more study is needed, but these don't include basic electronics or Physics. Someone claiming that their sighted hearing preferences negate basic science is not only silly but arguing against these claims gets really tiring as it is repeated so often. More tolerance and respect might be appropriate, but we are all only humans... at least I think most of us here are ;)
but who is arguing that? In my case I said I was sure I heard a difference, I offered to prove it in front of anyone. and i believe I would have but only because they were not both discrete DACs in which I was wrong . and clearly stated it was only the DACS I had, in my system. My understanding of the units in question was flawed, but one was clearly distorted at high levels, proven by measurements now, and you all probably would have heard it. Please god help me refrain from responding anymore
 

pkane

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
5,632
Likes
10,207
Location
North-East
but who is arguing that? In my case I said I was sure I heard a difference, I offered to prove it in front of anyone. and i believe I would have but only because they were not both discrete DACs in which I was wrong . and clearly stated it was only the DACS I had, in my system. My understanding of the units in question was flawed, but one was clearly distorted at high levels, proven by measurements now, and you all probably would have heard it. Please god help me refrain from responding anymore

I’m guessing you’ve not been here for that long. This happens multiple times a week, and lately seems even more frequent. I wasn’t replying to you, by the way, if that helps.
 

Robh3606

Active Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
132
Likes
123
This was looked into 5 years ago here,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ignal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/

The thing is adding a box full of wires and conductive gravel that is not earthed to the ground connection of a hifi is very likely to add noise picked up from speaker cables and maybe interconnects and other things, depending on where it is placed.
In experiments about 20 years ago to try to understand why LPs sounded quite good despite poor noise, crosstalk and distortion performance.
The noise test was interesting in that adding noise, whilst not directly audible, gave the impression of a bigger stereo image.
I don't know if people really hear a difference with these things (other than placebo) but if they do this may be why.
One thing they are certainly not doing is reducing noise and why, given the electrical layout would or could they?

Thanks for the link. I agree I don't think a box of fish tank gravel is going to help. The only point I was trying to make was the one with multiple inputs might inadvertently act as a star ground or terminate an unused input, similar to shorting plugs for RCA connectors and help things out.

Rob:)
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

By the way, does everyone understand that Hamlet says this because he has just claimed to have seen his father's ghost, and Horatio questions it as "wondrous strange"?

Also - "If Hamlet is rejecting the limits of philosophy as a discipline, it may well be a reassertion of theology’s sovereignty as Queen of the Sciences. This would make it sound much more like a call to return to orthodoxy."
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Yes, but in the medical context the effects can be real - temperature goes down, tumors shrink, people get a little better. But in audio there are no real effects. It's better thought of as a kind of weak hypnosis - magazine and internet chatter, sometimes over years, stands in for the guy in the tail coat swinging the gold watch, and people believe what's suggested to them.

I think the best way to understand placebo effect is as a change of state in the body due to suggestibility. So with placebo medication, the physical body changes in response to the suggestion that the placebo is real. With audio, the brain changes its processing of the audio due to the suggestion that the equipment is superior, either because of price, brand, or aesthetics.

So yes. There are "real" effects in either instance.

At the same time, when we say audiophiles are experiencing the placebo effect, it is taken by them as the entire experience is "all in their head" or "just their imagination." I've heard them say things like that. They see it as a rejection of their entire listening experience.

But that is not accurate. These DACs and amps that should sound the same because they are noise and distortion-free within the range of human hearing do sound very good. Better I think would be to describe it as confirmation or expectation bias that enhances or colors that very good sound signature a little bit.

See the difference in tone between how they will interpret the placebo effect as "all in their head" or "just their imagination?" And using the term confirmation bias with the description that it "enhances the experience?"
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
I think the best way to understand placebo effect is as a change of state in the body due to suggestibility. So with placebo medication, the physical body changes in response to the suggestion that the placebo is real. With audio, the brain changes its processing of the audio due to the suggestion that the equipment is superior, either because of price, brand, or aesthetics.

So yes. There are "real" effects in either instance.

At the same time, when we say audiophiles are experiencing the placebo effect, it is taken by them as the entire experience is "all in their head" or "just their imagination." I've heard them say things like that. They see it as a rejection of their entire listening experience.

But that is not accurate. These DACs and amps that should sound the same because they are noise and distortion-free within the range of human hearing do sound very good. Better I think would be to describe it as confirmation or expectation bias that enhances or colors that very good sound signature a little bit.

See the difference in tone between how they will interpret the placebo effect as "all in their head" or "just their imagination?" And using the term confirmation bias with the description that it "enhances the experience?"

Psychosomatic, suggested/suggestible, it seems like they all feel demeaning because we've conditioned ourselves to think we are naturally objective arbiters (or can be trained as such) of all the information entering our brains via our senses. Every term I can think of hacks away at that delusion, and can feel offensive as a result.
 

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Psychosomatic, suggested/suggestible, it seems like they all feel demeaning because we've conditioned ourselves to think we are naturally objective arbiters (or can be trained as such) of all the information entering our brains via our senses. Every term I can think of hacks away at that delusion, and can feel offensive as a result.

Right. So we can address that rhetorically depending on how we choose to describe the effect. There are certainly ways to do so that are likely to put them off less and make them more receptive. That's why people get angry when someone on this forum says, "You are just experiencing the placebo effect. It's all in your head." lol
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
Thanks for the link. I agree I don't think a box of fish tank gravel is going to help. The only point I was trying to make was the one with multiple inputs might inadvertently act as a star ground or terminate an unused input, similar to shorting plugs for RCA connectors and help things out.

Rob:)
It may star ground the various items, yes.
It won't terminate like a shorting plug though because only the shield is connected.

It will just generally add picked up noise to the ground plane and that is probably all.
Much quoting of "blacker backgrounds" is amusing, to me at least.
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
Was watching one of Amir's videos. This was in the chat. It just never ends. Bald assertions about sound immediately leads to listening resume comparison. So juvenile.

1616513902354.png
 

David Harper

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2019
Messages
359
Likes
434
Remarkable isn't it how furious and vindictive some people become on forums like this one? (including me in the past but I'm working on it).
Something about hiding behind the internet that makes many of us very macho and combative. But it occured to me that the feeling that you've been insulted personally by an anonymous post on an internet forum is stupid. (anonymous because most of us aren't even using our real names).
It's a lot like road rage IMO. That's also anonymous. But a few years ago I was involved in a really ugly road rage incident that rattled me so profoundly that I'm pretty sure I will never do that again.
 

rdenney

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,235
Likes
3,857
Psychosomatic, suggested/suggestible, it seems like they all feel demeaning because we've conditioned ourselves to think we are naturally objective arbiters (or can be trained as such) of all the information entering our brains via our senses. Every term I can think of hacks away at that delusion, and can feel offensive as a result.
Yes, but are we hacking away with a soft pillow or a rusty machete?

Rick "preferring his surgery with sharp, clean instruments and plenty of anaesthetic" Denney
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
Yes, but are we hacking away with a soft pillow or a rusty machete?

Rick "preferring his surgery with sharp, clean instruments and plenty of anaesthetic" Denney

A low brass instrument of some sort.


That's a Sousaphone, right?
 
Last edited:

rdenney

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,235
Likes
3,857
A low brass instrument of some sort.
Okay, soft pillow.

Edit--I realize now that there is a Youtube linked, which I didn't see before. I'll have to look at it when I'm on a computer outside of the current sandbox I'm in.

Rick "at least that's my hope" Denney
 
Last edited:

raistlin65

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
2,279
Likes
3,421
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
It would be great if we could get fMRI scans done of highly accurate DAC or amp comparisons when sighted, vs DBT. To see if expectation bias happens in the sound processing part of the brain, much like predictive coding, or whether it's stimulating some minor emotional response all on its own that colors the interpretation.
 

Pdxwayne

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
3,219
Likes
1,172
It would be great if we could get fMRI scans done of highly accurate DAC or amp comparisons when sighted, vs DBT. To see if expectation bias happens in the sound processing part of the brain, much like predictive coding, or whether it's stimulating some minor emotional response all on its own that colors the interpretation.
I do know that when I did my double blinds tests, my heart rate increased and my stress level increased. I wonder if that would also color my test results....
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,952
Likes
8,698
Location
New York City
I do know that when I did my double blinds tests, my heart rate increased and my stress level increased. I wonder if that would also color my test results....
I've heard this objection a number of times. I think it is a more reasonable objection to the controls of double-blind than most others.There have been a number of tests that allowed listener's to take as much time as they like, and kept the observers out of the room to counteract that effect.

Research suggests that if you are listening for a difference, you are likely to hear it, which is why pure A/B can be a problem (it was an obvious methodological and interpretation problem with the amp tests in Stereophile). So it's kind of amazing that listening for a difference in the test format produces so much stress.
 
Last edited:

Descartes

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 27, 2020
Messages
2,104
Likes
1,077
We need more scientific evaluation rather than subjective impressions!
The problem is that we all have biases and even if a speaker measures well if it is not esthetically appealing many of us will not appreciate it!
That’s why many manufacturers design their speakers to look good rather than sound good!

What we need is Harman to buy Sonus Faber and get their engineering into Italian clothing or should I say boxes!
 
Top Bottom