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Steve Guttenberg - Audiophiliac

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ta240

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I do have one small quibble with what he said though, which is that understanding measurements and objective listening is optional and a matter of personal preference.

To me understanding measurements, knowing how a speaker should sound based on its design, what things like distortion, frequencies, artefacts etc sound like, are fundamental if you want to understand audio.

But does he (and the philiakies) want to 'understand' audio or just listen to it? You are making an assumption that there are people out there that need to understand audio to enjoy it.

I mean, you don't get this with other hobbies.
Take cars for example. We don't have those who only like to drive and don't believe it's necessary to understand any of the technology vs those who only buy it for the technology.

I know people that go to car shows and talk about driving a fair amount, but have no grasp of what is happening mechanically under them. And I know people that get all excited about the latest technology but have no interest in ever going to a track or taking an onramp fast just for the fun of it.

The topic of faster vs feels faster comes up quite often in some circles. Old car with manual steering and manual transmission and no traction control vs new car with power everything and computers running it all. That is the classic numbers compared to experience argument just like in audio.

He could have encouraged his viewers to understand measurements and then go back to him for the other parts, instead of equating it to something he doesn't understand like sports.

He could, but that isn't his thing and I have to respect him a bit for coming out and saying that in his video. He didn't appear to say all the science doesn't matter he just said if that is what you are looking for then look elsewhere.

His viewers aren't interested in measurements. Why do we need to save them from that? Amir's fans aren't interested in subjective reviews, should we try to save them and force them to take in more subjective, sighted reviews of equipment?
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HiFidFan

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I mean, you don't get this with other hobbies.
Take cars for example. We don't have those who only like to drive and don't believe it's necessary to understand any of the technology vs those who only buy it for the technology.

In my experience, your assumption here is very wrong.

There are many, many professional drivers that have at most a basic understanding of the tech that propels them forward. Trust me, this is something of which I have direct experience.

On the flip side, I have friends and family members that buy a new car every few years because it's the 'latest and greatest' with all the whizzbang tech and impressive performance specs. Yet overall they consider driving pretty mundane.
 
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mhardy6647

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The topic of faster vs feels faster comes up quite often in some circles. Old car with manual steering and manual transmission and no traction control vs new car with power everything and computers running it all. That is the classic numbers compared to experience argument just like in audio.
Thus the modern pornography aberration feature (found, as I understand it, in some legitimately high-performance vehicles) of piping in engine sounds to the cockpit via the automobile's high-fidelity system. :)
 

Wes

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But does he (and the philiakies) want to 'understand' audio or just listen to it? You are making an assumption that there are people out there that need to understand audio to enjoy it.



I know people that go to car shows and talk about driving a fair amount, but have no grasp of what is happening mechanically under them. And I know people that get all excited about the latest technology but have no interest in ever going to a track or taking an onramp fast just for the fun of it.

The topic of faster vs feels faster comes up quite often in some circles. Old car with manual steering and manual transmission and no traction control vs new car with power everything and computers running it all. That is the classic numbers compared to experience argument just like in audio.


Why do we need to save them from that? Amir's fans aren't interested in subjective reviews, should we try to save them and force them to take in more subjective, sighted reviews of equipment?


Wrong. There is interest here in subjective reviews where extraneous variables are controlled.

You should have written that there is no interest in BS.

Many believe that consumer protection is important, including Congress and the Attorneys General of every state in the US. So don't use "saving" as a perjorative.
 

amirm

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.
 

Thomas savage

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.
Anthropomorphism , a similar state of thought exists in audio and is used to relate to audio and its technologies, real or misguided.
 

ta240

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Wrong. There is interest here in subjective reviews where extraneous variables are controlled.

You should have written that there is no interest in BS.

Many believe that consumer protection is important, including Congress and the Attorneys General of every state in the US. So don't use "saving" as a perjorative.

Consumer protection through attacking the consumer... interesting idea: "You must realize that you don't like this!!! Stop enjoying it now!!!". I guess I don't hear the same higher calling of you and the other attorneys generals ;)

It is an interesting missionary cause. To each their own.
 

ta240

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. .....

As English is not a dead language, it would seem that at some point we need to realize that the definition of that word is changing even if the dictionary still shows it as the same. It has been coopted by a group that isn't interested in the technology.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

You guys are really picking and choosing your group of car enthusiasts, because I've known plenty that haven't got a clue or a care about the real technical aspects and that quote the 'butt dyno' after questionable changes that they consider upgrades. Join a car detailing forum and many there that will make the audiopheliac look like a scientist.
 
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ROOSKIE

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As English is not a dead language, it would seem that at some point we need to realize that the definition of that word is changing even if the dictionary still shows it as the same. It has been coopted by a group that isn't interested in the technology.
As I understand it, "Audio enthusiast" is the term for someone who is into audio/music/sound (but not really as in to "hifi - accurate reproduction" which is a requirement for an audiophile, audiophiles being a more specific subset of the "audio enthusiast" group.)
 

ta240

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As I understand it, "Audio enthusiast" is the term for someone who is into audio/music/sound (but not really as in to "hifi - accurate reproduction" which is a requirement for an audiophile, audiophiles being a more specific subset of the "audio enthusiast" group.)

Probably should find a latin term if you don't want the meaning to change over time ;) Because that definition is changing and there ain't no goin back.
 

Thomas savage

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As English is not a dead language, it would seem that at some point we need to realize that the definition of that word is changing even if the dictionary still shows it as the same. It has been coopted by a group that isn't interested in the technology.



You guys are really picking and choosing your group of car enthusiasts, because I've known plenty that haven't got a clue or a care about the real technical aspects and that quote the 'butt dyno' after questionable changes that they consider upgrades. Join a car detailing forum and many there that will make the audiopheliac look like a scientist.
I once bought grounding cables for my engine in the hope of improving performance, cheaper than hifi grounding cables mind you ..

Its perfectly possible to be drawn into uneducated nonsense in all walks of life if ones enthusiasm out pases ones understanding .
 

tonybarrett

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

That Ferrari must be the fastest. It’s got the reddest paintwork.
 

tmtomh

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

I have to agree with this for the most part. I do think there are car enthusiasts who are not "gear heads," who don't work on the cars themselves, and who, like some audiophiles, might spout superficial technical claims about how certain tweaks improve the car's performance without actually caring about whether or not the claim is true - and might even insist that in their experience the tweak works even if rigorous testing shows it doesn't.

But I think that's a minor niggle with regard to Amir's point here: overall yes. most other equipment-based hobbies don't have the strength or prominence of subjectivism that audio does. To pick three examples, photography, computers, and home theater (specifically the video side). Those hobbies are all about technical knowledge - even the most artistic analogue film photography devotee is still going to know a lot and rely a lot on technical knowledge about f-stops, shutter speeds, the physics and geometry of lenses and light, the chemistry of developers, and so on. And while I'm sure there are isolated exceptions out there, generally speaking people into high-end TVs are heavily focused on objective, measurable performance qualities like brightness, contrast, dynamic range, color range, refresh speed, and so on. Of course plenty of folks drop lots of money without much technical knowledge and rely on manufacturers' often-suspect, unscientific performance claims just like audio - but I don't think there's an audio-like culture in video wherein professional reviewers, seasoned experts with decades of experience, and avid consumers are all united in dismissing the relevance of measurements and in claiming to see visual qualities that cannot be measured or are the complete opposite of what the measurement indicate.

Similarly, computer hobbyists talk about systems feeling "snappy" or "responsive," and they (quite rightly) talk about how benchmarks don't fully measure all possible everyday use cases - but I've never seen any critical mass in the computer hobby of people saying that a computer that's clearly, measurably slower than another one is actually faster. (Yes there are the operating system holy wars where people are irrational, but that's a separate issue).

The bottom line is that in audiophile culture there is a degree of official, expert opinion that seems to go way beyond the marketing-speak one finds among reviewers and other experts in many other hobbies, and actively promotes anti-science and voodoo, in a way that doesn't exist in a lot of other tech-oriented hobbies.
 

scott wurcer

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If you wanted a fight, should've picked Michael Fremer.

Romy the Cat did so here: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=1957#1957. Highly amusing.

Thanks, I love Romy and Arthur Salvatore for that matter. They are interesting characters that have both had feuds with people I can't stand. Romy's description of how Bruckner should sound is wonderfully eccentric and Arthur has a seriously interesting eclectic taste in music.

Fremer OTOH constantly plays the envy card (though he incorrectly uses jealousy). He pushes the cost level to an absurd limit on every component. He did a review of the Furutech vinyl de-magnetizer and quoted some lab measurements, when I replicated them it was easy to show that the magnetic susceptibility of the average cartridge was 8 or 9 orders of magnitude below the numbers he presented.
 

scott wurcer

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I once bought grounding cables for my engine in the hope of improving performance, cheaper than hifi grounding cables mind you ..

I had a tech that showed me a quartz crystal wrapped in copper tape around his carburetor. I could write a book on the techs I had in my 42 years of working. I had another that checked an entire case of green Krylon out of lab supplies and painted his car on lunch break.
 

HiFidFan

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

Sorry, the analogy does not square with me. What are the technical aspects one would adhere to, in order to call themselves a car enthusiast?
 
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HiFidFan

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I once bought grounding cables for my engine in the hope of improving performance, cheaper than hifi grounding cables mind you ..

Its perfectly possible to be drawn into uneducated nonsense in all walks of life if ones enthusiasm out pases ones understanding .

I had a tech that showed me a quartz crystal wrapped in copper tape around his carburetor. I could write a book on the techs I had in my 42 years of working. I had another that checked an entire case of green Krylon out of lab supplies and painted his car on lunch break.

Yes, the automobile industry is rife with snake oil. . .

 

Helicopter

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I wonder what percentage of sports cars that cost more than a supercharged C7 Corvette have superior technical performance.
 
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