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Neumann kh 310 + hk 750 vs kh 420

cesare

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Hello to everybody

This is my first post here .I have to thanks Audiosciencereview because it opened my eyes.I was the typical foolish audiophile.I have spent lots of money reading audiophile magazine, reviews and following advices from self-declared experts.
Reading reviews here I purchased a couple of Neumann KH 310, which I like very much.Now I would like to improve performance, especially in the bass response.
Question is : better to add a subwoofer like the HK 750 or change the speaker with a bigger woofer like th hk 420.
I don't do studio monitoring, just listen music.

thank you
 

Vintage57

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I voted for the KH420.
 

Dimifoot

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D09258EA-FB10-46EE-9E9D-CB9539D55886.gif
 
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cesare

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I would like Dimifoot suggestion, but I'm talking about home environment .I don't have so much space.Nor my wife would like it !:D
 
OP
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cesare

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Kh 750 is below Kh 310 bass spl. 105 vs 106.Neverthless Neumann says Kh 750 is perfect companion for KH 310.
 

q3cpma

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I posted about it some time ago:
CMB said:
In that context, if Neumann is the way to go :
Any thoughts about KH310 & a pair of KH750 (approx 6K EUR) as to compare to KH420 (approx 7K EUR)?
Both should be in the mentioned budget.
Personally, I'd take the KH420A and use external room correction, as you can't easily fix the (small but existent) directivity issues of the KH310A. I also expect the ported 10" woofer in the KH420A to go louder than a sealed 10" + 8" (Neumann says so, 110 dB for the KH420A vs 105 dB for the KH750DSP for "Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz)"). If you don't want hassle, the MA-1 with the KH310A + KH750DSP certainly is a nice solution; but I thought OP didn't want DSP?


Kh 750 is below Kh 310 bass spl. 105 vs 106.Neverthless Neumann says Kh 750 is perfect companion for KH 310.
Obviously because it goes 10 Hz or so lower.
 

hyperplanar

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I think if what you are looking for is the most extended and even bass response (but not necessarily the ability of more SPL), then adding a subwoofer like the KH750 is the way to go. It's been discussed at length on this forum, but basically, the best location to place your speakers for every reason besides bass reproduction is almost always different from the best location for bass reproduction. It's advantageous to have a subwoofer because it allows you to address those two concerns separately with less compromise in either direction. Add on top of that the KH750's built-in DSP capabilities--you can have a truly even bass response, or get much closer to it, at least.

You could also consider other subwoofers with higher max SPL and similar bass extension, such as the offerings from SVS/Hsu/Rythmik, but you'll have to do more work/buy more stuff to get it all connected up properly, and those don't have room EQ capabilities built in either.

The KH420 will give you a higher max SPL than the KH750, but you can't move their bass drivers separately around the room like you can with a subwoofer.
 
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CMB

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Ave
I like this thread :) Same questions in my mind.
I heard the KH 420 in a studio environment - absolut fantastic.
Could not hear the KH 310/KH 750 yet.

In a home use, with an untreated living room, I am not certain the KH 420 would perform as well as in a studio (of course not).
KH 750 + KH 310 would give the ability to do the room DSP directly in the speaker and as such all sources would benefit from it.
Today, I have external DSP => Audirvana music player with Dirac Studio; and alternatively for digitals sources I have to rely on EQ in RME Adi DAC/Umik/REW.
(Dirac works better for me as I am not a sound engineer).

Some questions are in my confusing mind :

What if out of a sudden I would want to hook up a turntable?
No room-correction

I understand that KH 310/KH 750 all sealed vs. KH 420 ported.
Advantage sealed KH310/750?

In a variable living room listening position of 3-4 or 6 m (10-20 feet) distance.
Advantage KH 420?

KH 750 does not (yet) handle DSP for 2 Subs.
Advantage KH 420 with external DSP?

Do I really need SPL 110 dB KH 420 vs 105 dB KH 310/750?
Advantage KH 420?

Bass 14-16 HZ KH 310/750 vs 25-26 HZ KH 420
Advantage KH 310/750?

Topic "(small but existent) directivity issues of the KH310A"
How do I know that the directivity would be any better with KH 420?
Will I notice in a living-room?

Will 2 KH 750 give me the same sensation than a large 15inch bass?

Price
Advantage KH310/750?

Statement : I simply don't know to sell staff.
If I don't like to see those anymore in my living room, which one is easier to recycle in the bed-room or office?
Advantage KH 310/750?

Last but not least, both speakers are around since many years (besides KH750 & MA 1).
Are they still absolute state of the art (excuse the question)?

You don't need to answer all these questions (but happy for any input :) ) - just wanted share my current thoughts.

Ave Caesar morituri te salutant
 

hyperplanar

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What if out of a sudden I would want to hook up a turntable?
No room-correction
You can always digitize it for DSP. What external DSP are you using?

I understand that KH 310/KH 750 all sealed vs. KH 420 ported.
Advantage sealed KH310/750?
Like almost everything else in life, it's not only black or white. But generally, sealed will have better group delay, while ported will have higher max SPL and/or allows speakers to reach lower frequencies for the same size. Ported also opens the possibility of port noise, resonances, and SPL nonlinearity (Neumann's port designs are mostly exempt from these issues though).
Neumann provides group delay graphs on their website, so you should be able to compare the KH750 with the KH420 specifically there.
In my experience, the group delay of the KH750 is pretty fantastic. I get about half a cycle of group delay from 20 to 100 Hz, including the group delay added by the 24 dB/oct crossover at 80 Hz.

In a variable living room listening position of 3-4 or 6 m (10-20 feet) distance.
Advantage KH 420?
In terms of the directivity and SPL capability, yes the KH420 is better IMO. The KH420's directivity is smoother than the KH310's, but it also radiates sound in a more focused pattern, so you will hear less of your room at that distance as a result. However, you'll have a harder time getting even bass than if you had subwoofer(s).

Last but not least, both speakers are around since many years (besides KH750 & MA 1).
Are they still absolute state of the art (excuse the question)?
For the total price including amplification, they're ridiculously hard to beat. But they are still conventional box designs, just with good waveguides. I would say absolute state of the art speakers would be stuff like Genelec's The Ones (8331, 8341, 8351, 8361) where every sound source is effectively coaxial, or D&D 8C which have cardioid directivity in the low-mid frequencies with a waveguided tweeter (sorry ME Gethain?).
 
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q3cpma

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What if out of a sudden I would want to hook up a turntable?
No room-correction
Indeed. Do you actually want to?

I understand that KH 310/KH 750 all sealed vs. KH 420 ported.
Advantage sealed KH310/750?
The inconvenients of porting are almost all mitigated in the KH420:
* MF leaking: big 3-ways have a sealed midrange chamber.
* Group delay: not a problem with low tuning frequency.
* Resonances: solved by good design, which Neumann does.

In a variable living room listening position of 3-4 or 6 m (10-20 feet) distance.
Advantage KH 420?
See
neumann_messlabor_3-1024x768.jpg

Neumann-KH310-Messungen3.jpg

sizeable advantage to the KH420.

KH 750 does not (yet) handle DSP for 2 Subs.
Advantage KH 420 with external DSP?
Guess so. But I do think only a quite expensive version of Dirac properly handle multi sub.

Do I really need SPL 110 dB KH 420 vs 105 dB KH 310/750?
Advantage KH 420?
See your distance question. 105 dB SPL @ 1 m => 90 dB @ 6 m = 75 + 15 dB if you account for big peaks. Sounds like you never have too much horsepower at such a distance to me.

Bass 14-16 HZ KH 310/750 vs 25-26 HZ KH 420
Advantage KH 310/750?
For music, I wouldn't care, personally.

Topic "(small but existent) directivity issues of the KH310A"
How do I know that the directivity would be any better with KH 420?
Because we have data:
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh420/
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitor-neumann-kh-310-im-test/

Will I notice in a living-room?
Don't really know, but at such distance, I'd say that directivity and even power response start to matter a lot.

Last but not least, both speakers are around since many years (besides KH750 & MA 1).
Are they still absolute state of the art (excuse the question)?
Yes and no. They're part of the top, but I'd put Genelec's Ones + sub(s)/W371A and Kii's three + BXT over them. D&D would need a sub module to compete here.
 
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test1223

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Reading reviews here I purchased a couple of Neumann KH 310, which I like very much.Now I would like to improve performance, especially in the bass response.
The listening distance is very important. With the KH 420 about 2,1m listening distance is perfect with KH310 about 1,75m. I guess your listening distance is even higher than 2,1m, so I would suggest to test if you like the KH310 with the optimal listening distance better than with your current listening distance, if so (which is very likely) you should search for a speaker which is best suited for your listening distance and provides similar or better quality than the KH310.
 

CMB

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Thank you Hyperplanar + q3cpma for your food of thoughts.
So, this puts the balance rather in the benefit of KH 420 (and external DSP).
As for the turntable, just some general thoughts ... nothing really important to me.
Thank you Cesare for having launched that thread :).

I hope it will be useful to the tread owner as well as to me.
 
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cesare

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Thanks a lot for all the contribution.
Listening distance is 2 m.Here in Europe we can't afford big houses like in the USA.
Speakers have to be located close to walls.This is why I was skeptical to get ported design.
I don't mind DSP if it helps. Self-declared expert suggest PSI because of no DSP. But I wouldn't start the audiophile route again.
No turntable, please! :D
I'm not really confident with DSP software.Just because I never used one.I feel more safe on a software from the speaker brand.Maybe I'm wrong.
No budget problem.Not because I'm a millionaire.I've sold Wilson Audio speaker,Audio Research Pre+Fin,and DCS dac.I'm left with a discrete amount to spend.
First option was Genelec and its GLM software.But 8351B are now only built on order.If you don't like them you can't send them back.Also Genelec subs are huge.
 

hyperplanar

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Thanks a lot for all the contribution.
Listening distance is 2 m.Here in Europe we can't afford big houses like in the USA.
Speakers have to be located close to walls.This is why I was skeptical to get ported design.
I don't mind DSP if it helps. Self-declared expert suggest PSI because of no DSP. But I wouldn't start the audiophile route again.
No turntable, please! :D
I'm not really confident with DSP software.Just because I never used one.I feel more safe on a software from the speaker brand.Maybe I'm wrong.
No budget problem.Not because I'm a millionaire.I've sold Wilson Audio speaker,Audio Research Pre+Fin,and DCS dac.I'm left with a discrete amount to spend.
First option was Genelec and its GLM software.But 8351B are now only built on order.If you don't like them you can't send them back.Also Genelec subs are huge.
If you’re worried about the required clearance for ports, it’s not an issue because the ports are on the front of the speakers.

DSP will absolutely make a difference, for the typical home acoustical situation you will usually get more even bass and a cleaner low mid range. I think the Neumann MA1 system will give you pretty good results and it will guide you on the steps you need to do. Of course it helps to have an understanding of the fundamentals of the process but you can learn along the way :)
 

q3cpma

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I was told ports affect sound also from the front baffle.
If you don't do any room correction or equalisation, it's true that sealed roll-off behaves better than ported if both are flat anechoically. But almost all active speakers have at least dip switches to do basic boundary gain correction, so it doesn't matter in this case; and digital room correction solves this problem even more easily and completely.
 

q3cpma

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Thanks a lot for all the contribution.
Listening distance is 2 m.Here in Europe we can't afford big houses like in the USA.
Speakers have to be located close to walls.This is why I was skeptical to get ported design.
I don't mind DSP if it helps. Self-declared expert suggest PSI because of no DSP. But I wouldn't start the audiophile route again.
No turntable, please! :D
I'm not really confident with DSP software.Just because I never used one.I feel more safe on a software from the speaker brand.Maybe I'm wrong.
No budget problem.Not because I'm a millionaire.I've sold Wilson Audio speaker,Audio Research Pre+Fin,and DCS dac.I'm left with a discrete amount to spend.
First option was Genelec and its GLM software.But 8351B are now only built on order.If you don't like them you can't send them back.Also Genelec subs are huge.
Seeing the situation more clearly, you should really consider the 8351B with a single 7370A or pair of standalone 8361A (or 8351B + W371A for endgame). To be honest, the brands and product class we're talking about here are so transparent that you can't "dislike" them if you're searching for fidelitey, but even so, I'm skeptical about speakers you can't send back (at least during a period of X days mandated by your local law), sounds like bamboozling.
 
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Vintage57

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May I ask why? I mean, from a technical point of view.Thanks

Why I bought the Neuman’s
I found the company specs were verifiable with my own in room measurement. This is a big thing to me.
Bass with a -3 dB @ 26 Hz point is well integrated and has amazing punch.
I have a dip at 60 Hz from my left speaker due to room node. I was able to flatten with the use of the KH805. As an added benefit I have -3 dB of 18 Hz. extension.
Another reason to buy Neumann products is they are well thought out and work very well together
That’s why I voted Neumann, I have only heard the Genelec’s at shows and preferred the Neuman’s. YMMV
 
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