Topping E30 DAC Review

[solderdude]

don't use music but an artificial signal.
Go to this website:
https://onlinetonegenerator.com/

click on the button 'sawtooth'
then on the blue 'save' button and you can save a 440Hz sawtooth file (wav format).

play it on the E30 and record that on the 0202.
Then look at the waveforms (zoomed in) with something like Audacity.
The rising edges should be going into the same direction (rising or downward sloping)

a pointless excercise though as all 2009 will have correct polarity.

 

[Pdxwayne]

don't use music but an artificial signal.
Go to this website:
https://onlinetonegenerator.com/

click on the button 'sawtooth'
then on the blue 'save' button and you can save a 440Hz sawtooth file (wav format).

play it on the E30 and record that on the 0202.
Then look at the waveforms (zoomed in) with something like Audacity.
The rising edges should be going into the same direction (rising or downward sloping)

a pointless excercise though as all 2009 will have correct polarity.

Thanks!

But not so clear still what to look for....A pictures or two would be appreciated to explain what you meant by

"The rising edges should be going into the same direction (rising or downward sloping)"

Thanks!

 

[solderdude]

load the original wav file into an audio editor (like the freeware audacity) and zoom in on the waveform.
should look like this:

then load the recording into the audio editor and should look similar (but will include ringing) not in amplitude but in the slowly sloping direction and not in the opposite direction.

The problem with this test is that it is unknown whether or not the 0202 is polarity correct and whether or not there is software in the used source that flips polarity for some reason.
One would expect this not to be flipping polarity but the chance of this being the case is infinitely bigger than a 2009 production E30 having a half year old board in it with firmware on it that isn't suited for that board and functioning normally.

You can also record the output of your other DAC and see if that matches the waveform of the E30 recording.

You can also check the polarity of the 0202 using a 1.5V battery with some cunning wiring.

 

[enomiss]

Trying to download new Topping driver, but download link seems dead.
Download - TOPPING (tpdz.net)
Any other source to download?

Btw, is are there release notes?

 

[solderdude]

drivers or firmware ?

try here: https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/#all

There is no new firmware for E30 AFAIK
Only a firmware update for the pre-2004 versions was released (v1.08)

 

[solderdude]

should I see V1.08 firmware for my E30 with serial number starts at 2009? Thanks!
View attachment 111878

My 2004 E30 returns this:

It seems that the 2004 firmware is the same as the fix for the pre-2004 models. There does not seem to have been an update (and probably is not needed either)

 

[Pdxwayne]

My 2004 E30 returns this:

View attachment 112121

It seems that the 2004 firmware is the same as the fix for the pre-2004 models. There does not seem to have been an update (and probably is not needed either)

I just downloaded Audacity. Trying to figure out bagpipe high notes freq using original song. Wow, lots of high freqs from bagpipes. Left is before bagpipe started. Right is after bagpipe started.

 

[Pdxwayne]

load the original wav file into an audio editor (like the freeware audacity) and zoom in on the waveform.
should look like this:

then load the recording into the audio editor and should look similar (but will include ringing) not in amplitude but in the slowly sloping direction and not in the opposite direction.

The problem with this test is that it is unknown whether or not the 0202 is polarity correct and whether or not there is software in the used source that flips polarity for some reason.
One would expect this not to be flipping polarity but the chance of this being the case is infinitely bigger than a 2009 production E30 having a half year old board in it with firmware on it that isn't suited for that board and functioning normally.

You can also record the output of your other DAC and see if that matches the waveform of the E30 recording.

You can also check the polarity of the 0202 using a 1.5V battery with some cunning wiring.

My Behninger UCA202 is of bad quality. I tried doing Audacity recording via both channels in of UCA202 from E30. The recorded audio timing is not synced between left and right channels. This sucks. No wonder it was in my closet for a long time.

 

[Pdxwayne]

load the original wav file into an audio editor (like the freeware audacity) and zoom in on the waveform.
should look like this:

then load the recording into the audio editor and should look similar (but will include ringing) not in amplitude but in the slowly sloping direction and not in the opposite direction.

The problem with this test is that it is unknown whether or not the 0202 is polarity correct and whether or not there is software in the used source that flips polarity for some reason.
One would expect this not to be flipping polarity but the chance of this being the case is infinitely bigger than a 2009 production E30 having a half year old board in it with firmware on it that isn't suited for that board and functioning normally.

You can also record the output of your other DAC and see if that matches the waveform of the E30 recording.

You can also check the polarity of the 0202 using a 1.5V battery with some cunning wiring.

I just deleted my previous post.

I realized the reverse issue is likely due to UCA202 used for measurements. Once I measured X16 and compared to E30, the charts looks similar. It means they are both similar and there is no reverse issue, correct?

Gustard X16 is left. E30 is right. Both using Left RCA output (full volume out from laptop, X16 db reduced to -5db and E30 db reduced to -5db) to UCA202.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I just deleted my previous post.

I realized the reverse issue is likely due to UCA202 used for measurements. Once I measured X16 and compared to E30, the charts looks similar. It means they are both similar and there is no reverse issue, correct?

Gustard X16 is left. E30 is right. Both using Left RCA output (full volume out from laptop, X16 db reduced to -5db and E30 db reduced to -5db) to UCA202.

View attachment 112203

You should use sawtooth wave instead. But it does look like both have same polarity.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You should use sawtooth wave instead. But it does look like both have same polarity.

I was trying to compare playback of a song. Sawtooth is generated tone, am I correct?

Anyway, using a 15 second section of song, I compare freq analysis of X16 vs E30. It would appear -5db setting of X16 is about 5.5db louder than -5db setting of E30.

Any differences in db to worry about? Would 0.5db difference noticeable? Thanks!

Top is X16. Bottom is E30.

 

[solderdude]

The problem with measuring is that you can do it the wrong way.
You cannot measure length with apples. It will give different readings depending on the apples you use. Certainly when someone else starts to use oranges and expects the same results.

These differences you see are NOT FR related.
You are looking at analysis differences. That program is NOT intended to analyze this way.
The results you get are not DAC differences but analysis differences as you will certainly not have selected the exact same samples.
There is no way in hell the differences shown can happen in reality.

To find out how different the output level is you need to measure amplitude with a constant tone. measure FR with a swept sine or with white noise averaged over at least a few minutes.

For the polarity test you need to use the artificial signal and zoom in the frequency response so you can see the actual waveform. That is what you can use this program for as well as for editing music.

Anyway you have proven the E30 is not polarity reversed.
Stop using music and a program that is only intended for editing music as a 'measurement device' in ways it wasn't designed for.

 

[companyja]

I think fundamentally there seems to be some sort of mistrust about generated tones not being representative of music here, hence testing with "real" music. Don't worry, all music is just tones added on top of one another over and over and over again, we test with tones because it's the only way we are able to read the results reliably. If we don't use a knowable, limited input (a test tone), we won't know which part of the analyzed result is unwanted product (distortions + noise).

In your case (trying to diagnose timbral differences between DACs using a frequency analyzer), all you need to look at is the frequency response of the dacs in measurements. Those will tell you if dacs act as de-facto EQ in your chain. Most DACs will give you ruler flat response from 20hz-20khz, which means they will not alter horns or vocals or whatever instrument you believe to be hearing differently. Some dacs like the E30 and the X16 allow you to switch filters as well which only ever so slightly and inaudibly change the upper limits, near that 20khz. You will never in a million years be able to hear this difference unless it is drastic, and if you're not a teenager, you're not hearing anything past 18khz anyway, don't worry about it.

Ultimately the differences you are hearing are most likely explained in a very boring way - you're not volume matching. You mentioned before that you can get the volume no matter how loud and still not hear the bass as well or whatever from the E30. Improper volume matching is improper volume matching is improper volume matching - unless you get them dead even and blind test it, there's no point measuring the output further

 

[Pdxwayne]

The problem with measuring is that you can do it the wrong way.
You cannot measure length with apples. It will give different readings depending on the apples you use. Certainly when someone else starts to use oranges and expects the same results.

These differences you see are NOT FR related.
You are looking at analysis differences. That program is NOT intended to analyze this way.
The results you get are not DAC differences but analysis differences as you will certainly not have selected the exact same samples.
There is no way in hell the differences shown can happen in reality.

To find out how different the output level is you need to measure amplitude with a constant tone. measure FR with a swept sine or with white noise averaged over at least a few minutes.

For the polarity test you need to use the artificial signal and zoom in the frequency response so you can see the actual waveform. That is what you can use this program for as well as for editing music.

Anyway you have proven the E30 is not polarity reversed.
Stop using music and a program that is only intended for editing music as a 'measurement device' in ways it wasn't designed for.

Yeah, I realized Audacity is not that good of an app to do detail freq analysis. When I changed around the zoom, the numbers changed again. So with audacity, I should play sawtooth tone and compare DAC output. Will check it out.

Thanks!

 

[JohnYang1997]

Yeah, I realized Audacity is not that good of an app to do detail freq analysis. When I changed around the zoom, the numbers changed again. So with audacity, I should play sawtooth tone and compare DAC output. Will check it out.

Thanks!

You only needed to record 1 second of sawtooth wave that's it...

 

[Pdxwayne]

You only needed to record 1 second of sawtooth wave that's it...

Yup. Just finished a 2Khz sawtooth measurements. Gustard x16 (left) and Topping E30 (right) look the same with 2Khz sawtooth playback.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Yup. Just finished a 2Khz sawtooth measurements. Gustard x16 (left) and Topping E30 (right) look the same with 2Khz sawtooth playback.

View attachment 112232

Seems your system has inverted polarity, adc possibly. But X16 and E30 are consistent.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Seems your system has inverted polarity, adc possibly. But X16 and E30 are consistent.

Yup, most likely due to the cheap Behringer UCA202. A piece of junk that have serious channel crossed-talk problem and I can only measure one channel at a time.

Thank you @solderdude and @JohnYang1997 for the tips. I learn lots today playing with things. : )

So USB looks good. Will ck coaxial and toslink tomorrow.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I am now satisfied that the difference I heard is not due to reverse phase issue of E30. Gustard X16 vs Topping E30, coaxial and optical, using sawtooth 2Khz signal both showing similar pattern. The reversed pattern, per @JohnYang1997 and @solderdude , is likely due to my Behringer UCA202 ADC. Thanks again for showing me a good way to do comparison!

 

[voodooless]

Well.. we wasted about 5 pages with this nonsense.. congratulations