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Measurements and Review of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC

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Thomas savage

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We are also getting invading 'crusaders' for the 'faith' constipating some threads with the same old tired, disproven, perspectives. :rolleyes:
Yes and it’s our responsibility to present the best face of rational ( objective) thought in our approach to Audio ( that’s one of the founding principles of this forum by the way) . I will deal with the disingenuous trolls but on the whole the recent influx of new members posting are here out of their own curiosity. They still might struggle with the way we do things but I don’t mind that, I will deal with any circular argument dynamic that might occur.

You can’t moan so many are irrational easily lead etc in Audio then chase away the few that take a intrest in what we are doing. You want audiophiles to embrace a more rational objective view , dial down the hostility and give people a chance.
 

March Audio

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I think problem posters are actually quite easily differentiated from the genuine curious people who want to sensibly debate, contribute and learn. I have learnt my lesson and I am quick to engage ignore these days. Regardless, problems do need to removed quickly as unfortunately even sensible people will get drawn into pointless arguments.

At the moment we are pretty heavily focussed on dac products, but the reviews are factual information devoid of the bollocks that usually accompanies magazine content and uninformed audiophile fantasy that proloiferates in other forums. Now thats genuinely useful to people trying to navigate the minefield of products and marketing bullshit thats out there.

ASR rocks :)
 
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Jerry Sobel

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..mmmm..... company sells a product with a claim it "delivers 21 bit resolution". Measurements show it struggles to acheive 16 bit resolution. I think a customer is entitled to an explanation, and if it doesnt acheive that performance claim, their money back.

The customer is perfectly entitled to be pissed off and schitt need to take responsibility for it, that includes taking the flack .
Thank you.
 

Jerry Sobel

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There is an audio gear repair place in my area (Phoenix) and I am thinking about bringing in my Yggdrasil to have it tested. My unit works fine and it is fully "broken in." If I do, I will post the results.
 
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amirm

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There is an audio gear repair place in my area (Phoenix) and I am thinking about bringing in my Yggdrasil to have it tested. My unit works fine and it is fully "broken in." If I do, I will post the results.
That would be good.
 

GearMe

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Well indicates the forum is getting noticed. Whether it continues to convince or not there is the chance.
This! Discussion is the key...realizing that people come to the table with a variety of backgrounds, biases, etc.

When viewed from this perspective, then your challenge (imo) becomes 'what message do we want to drive to those that will listen...and will we listen to them?'

My sense is that many on this forum are engaged in this manner. Some...not so much; being dismissive objectivists much like their dismissive subjectivist counterparts on other sites. I view these 'absolutists' as two ends of the bell curve that, to me, provide no added value to the discussion...outliers -- so to speak.


ASR MISSION? (genuine question and some anecdotal thoughts that relate to it)

If the mission is just to provide data, that's great. But I'd vote for providing useful information...that can be leveraged by open-minded people to help them make a 'well-informed' buying decision.

For me, and some others I'd suspect, this useful information would be the measurements/comparisons plus a discussion that informs the reader about what these measurement differences likely mean to them when they are listening.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with saying...'although DAC X measures better/worse than DAC Y and costs 3x as much, we'd expect that the listener would not hear much/if any difference'. As a bonus, if you're looking to move the needle with the open-minded subjectivists, a quick listen/writeup comparing the measured DACs that states no difference was heard, etc. would probably engage a few of them.


CONSUMER BEHAVIOR (Satisficer vs Maximizer?)

I'd wager that the majority of consumer buying decisions are rarely, if ever, strictly based on pure price/performance ratios.

I'm definitely a Satisficer, so I use measurements and subjective reviews to help (not dictate) my buying decision. I enjoy the information gathering process and use it to varying degrees depending on the purchase. However, I don't agonize over decisions, feel that I must get the absolute/best value, or have buyer's remorse to speak of.

TBH, the closest thing to buyer's remorse I've had in the audio realm was the introduction of the Mimby...which made me think that I paid an extra $350 for my Multibit experiment. That said, if I had the options available at the time, I'd probably still have bought the Mimby for aesthetics and upgradeability. :eek:

A couple purchasing decisions of mine...

My purchasing thought process for the Bimby was far more convoluted than I believe that many on this forum would guess/use.

Why I bought a Bimby...
- I own several high-impedance cans from Senn and Beyer
- After reading about OTL amps, thought one would be worth exploring/buying for these cans
- Looked at low-end to mid-level (<=$400) OTL amps
- Narrowed it down to a few and read more reviews.
- Compared companies...where were they located, how did their existing customers say they've been treated, etc.
- Chose Schiit because I liked their story, they were USA based, customer reviews were positive, and I've owned Sumo amps in the past and enjoyed them.

What's this got to do with a Bimby?
- Well...since I feel that most DACs do a good job these days (from a listener's perspective), the Bifrost gets the nod because it's a 'matching' counterpart to the Valhalla 2.
- Gave serious thought to getting the Bifrost (Delta-Sigma)...after all, it 'matched' ;) and it was $200 cheaper!
- However, I'd read enough about Multibit DACs and knew of Mike's reputation at Theta, so for $200 more gave Multibit a shot

In contrast, why'd I buy my Sony UDA-1?
- Mostly impulse buy really
- Was wanting to get a piece of gear that would serve as a decent DAC/HP & Speaker Amp combo
- Hadn't really invested much effort in evaluating gear
- Woot ran a sale for these units at $199 NIB.
- Done deal...the box has served its purpose very well; even with its Schiity DS dac! :D

So what?! Well, if I'm in the minority because I buy things using a combination of subjective/objective/pricing factors and the rest of the world buys primarily on price/performance ratios, then it makes sense to just publish data and prices.

On the other hand, if the majority of consumers buy gear due to more varied decision processes, then providing them with a combination of measurement data and some interpretation of it relative to the user's listening experience will position this forum as a place that is a trusted advisor having a balanced approach.
 

Thomas savage

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@GearMe There’s the data from Amirs testing here but also a treasure trove of information on countless topics related to audio and a deal of well imformed members to talk about it with.

To turn data into useful information takes a deal of understanding but there’s help here for that too. ( don’t ask me though , I just work here :D)
 
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amirm

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ASR MISSION? (genuine question and some anecdotal thoughts that relate to it)

If the mission is just to provide data, that's great. But I'd vote for providing useful information...that can be leveraged by open-minded people to help them make a 'well-informed' buying decision.

For me, and some others I'd suspect, this useful information would be the measurements/comparisons plus a discussion that informs the reader about what these measurement differences likely mean to them when they are listening.
Let me address this since we are being stereotyped as being all about measurements. If you look more broadly in this forum, you will see extensive discussions of audio science, acoustics, audio theory, etc. So we are about totality of audio science and engineering.

On the specifics of my measurements, they for the most part indicate engineering excellence or lack thereof. Where appropriate I have and continue to make comments about audibility. Many times I dismiss the visual differences as not being audible differences. No one should jump to the conclusion that the measurements indicate audible superiority by the scores seen in the graphs. For good or bad, we are really, really bad at hearing these unfamiliar distortions no matter how much we think otherwise.

In the context of this review, please take a look at frequency response error in the upgraded analog board. It shows a 1 dB drop at low frequencies. I cited research that shows that is audible and is an audible problem. That is a case of graphs matching audible differences. Schiit needs to take immediate action to investigate this problem. They need to measure their own boards, reach out to that owner, etc. to figure out what is going on.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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The Schiit marketing angle is a good one. They act like everyone else is making equipment and is trying to pass off crap and hyped up bull poopy. Ironically it is them that is doing it. That is a sad commentary.
Interesting I have never seen any company who markets by trashing other companys products. Where do you see that?
 

rebbiputzmaker

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There is an audio gear repair place in my area (Phoenix) and I am thinking about bringing in my Yggdrasil to have it tested. My unit works fine and it is fully "broken in." If I do, I will post the results.
When did you start having a problem with your dac?
 

rtg97229

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So glad you brought this up.
You must have a real problem with missing the Yggdassil's manufacture's own data.

I prefer when companies provide their data like Emotiva does. The name of the site and Amir talking about his background made me think he was going to provide a different service than what he is targeting.

HP/Agilent/Keysight engineers don't say "We will not be called out out. It wurks guud. It measures guud."
Instead they spend a bit of time pulling a few pages (416 of them) together.
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/E4440-90647.pdf

I am very well aware of the PSA and X-series analyzers. If you think you have a problem with your analyzer (those tools have a great self cal) it would be useful to consult your recent calibration (that will include proper documentation for the application) or rerun your self cal. If your measurements are not as expected or inconsistent with previous measurements check your own setup, both test setup and analyzer settings. Good documentation of course helps.
 
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amirm

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If your measurements are not as expected or inconsistent with previous measurements check your own setup, both test setup and analyzer settings.
The previous measurements on Schiit Yggdrasil at SBAF were in 2015 or three years ago. The Stereophile measurements was a year ago. Both were prior to the upgraded boards in the DACs I tested. I find it strange that you automatically assume the new measurements are error and that there was some sense of correctness to the previous measurements when DUTs are different.

Where is the calibration report for the dSound analyzer SBAF used and AP 2700 and JA used?

What documentation did they have that gave you confidence that lack here?

Without answering these questions your concerns come across as creating FUD against data that is not liked, not any kind of objective analysis.
 

rtg97229

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The previous measurements on Schiit Yggdrasil at SBAF were in 2015 or three years ago. The Stereophile measurements was a year ago. Both were prior to the upgraded boards in the DACs I tested. I find it strange that you automatically assume the new measurements are error and that there was some sense of correctness to the previous measurements when DUTs are different.

Where is the calibration report for the dSound analyzer SBAF used and AP 2700 and JA used?

What documentation did they have that gave you confidence that lack here?

Without answering these questions your concerns come across as creating FUD against data that is not liked, not any kind of objective analysis.

Did you not bother to read the context of what I wrote? I was addressing the PSA and X-series analyzers not your measurements in what I said. That said I find it strange that you think I automatically trust other measurements or hold them to a different standard. I do not begrudge you targeting a different target audience than what I fit into but I do prefer you not mischaracterize what I say. I have no idea if you know how to use your test equipment nor does it matter as I am not your target audience for what you are doing. What you are going seems to be working for you so good job with that.
 

rtg97229

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Without answering these questions your concerns come across as creating FUD against data that is not liked, not any kind of objective analysis.

This is absolutely laughable. I have no emotional attachment to the test results of equipment I had nothing to do with designing. Of course people should ask questions when clarification is needed and I would not hesitate to ask the same questions of anyone doing the same thing.
 
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amirm

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This is absolutely laughable. I have no emotional attachment to the test results of equipment I had nothing to do with designing. Of course people should ask questions when clarification is needed and I would not hesitate to ask the same questions of anyone doing the same thing.
There is something amiss when you say if someone showed you my measurements you would throw them in the trash. In all the back and forth I have not found anything constructive in the position you are taking. I keep asking specific questions and nothing comes back. So the optics become as I stated: you just want to be dismissive of the results. It is unprofessional and not helpful. Whatever your motivation is, is yours to know. The outcome is what I am discussing.

So let's see you answer what I asked. What previous audio measurements have you seen where the equipment calibration reports were provided? If there is none, it would be good for you to state that.
 

rtg97229

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There is something amiss when you say if someone showed you my measurements you would throw them in the trash. In all the back and forth I have not found anything constructive in the position you are taking. I keep asking specific questions and nothing comes back. So the optics become as I stated: you just want to be dismissive of the results. It is unprofessional and not helpful. Whatever your motivation is, is yours to know. The outcome is what I am discussing.

So let's see you answer what I asked. What previous audio measurements have you seen where the equipment calibration reports were provided? If there is none, it would be good for you to state that.

You are again taking my words out of context needlessly in a conversation that could have easily been done as soon as we agreed that I am not your target audience. I was very specific with you over on head-fi and you did not respond. Here you have been a bit better but strangely defensive given that my questions are not difficult to either answer or simply state that it is not something that you believe to be interesting to your target audience.
 

maul

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This is absolutely laughable. I have no emotional attachment to the test results of equipment I had nothing to do with designing.

You clearly have an emotion attachment to the test results of equipment you're buying though. You have a Yggy/Freya, based on your Head-fi posts. (I own Schiit products too by the way)
 
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rtg97229

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You clearly have an emotion attachment to the test results of equipment you're buying though. You have a Yggy/Freya, based on your Head-fi posts.

I have a lot of audio equipment. You can see 3 of my setups on the Emotiva forums. I do not agree with your assertion though and I do not believe the measurements Amir has posted of anything I own are even bad measurements for the equipment. If Amir was more interested in my type of audience I was going to offer to help him because I only live about 3 hours away. Again, I don't begrudge someone having a different target audience.
 
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