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Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

Candlesticks

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Savage. I think this highlights the issue with basically every DAC review. How many other reviewers immediately hailed the Bifrost as "excellent", or even "without issue"?

Got to believe in the multibit sound. Can't compare it to DS.

The only thing I would fault Atomicbob for would be not giving the caveat that the measurements are terrible by the standards of even a mediocre DS DAC. Now if he wants to further clarify that to him it sounds great I'm not going to complain but the lack of perspective leads to situations like this where many people seemed to think the Bifrost Multibit measurements by Atomicbob showed the Bifrost Multibit to be good when it's not even close to a DS DAC 1/10 of the price.
 
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Sylafari

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How do you get the 4490? Does it come standard or you have to buy the base and then pay for that upgrade?

FYI, I purchased the Modi Multibit and have measurements of that already. :)

It's the base version. Very curious about Modi Multibit, have the strangest feeling its very very very similar.
 

drconopoima

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It's the base version. Very curious about Modi Multibit, have the strangest feeling its very very very similar.
I know that almost nobody takes ZeosPantera as anything more than an entertainer, but he telegraphed that multibit measures badly by uploading a video saying that the Modi Multibit was the only one that doesn't sound the same in a shootout against an iFi iOne and a JDS OL DAC. He said that it had more bass, which shouldn't be the case if it's transparent as the others. So it is very likely that it is similar to the Bifrost Multibit.
 

L0rdGwyn

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How do you get the 4490? Does it come standard or you have to buy the base and then pay for that upgrade?

FYI, I purchased the Modi Multibit and have measurements of that already. :)

Whoooooo boy, if the Bifrost MB measurements were controversial, the Modi MB results may incite rioting :eek: the number of owners is very high. If they are again in general agreement with Atomicbob's, it looks like they will tell a similar story to the Bifrost MB. Although, the linearity looks to be better (around 70 dB by his measurements).
 

Jimster480

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How do you get the 4490? Does it come standard or you have to buy the base and then pay for that upgrade?

FYI, I purchased the Modi Multibit and have measurements of that already. :)
Its just the normal Bifrost. When you click on bifrost that is the default one. It comes with a single 4490 just like the Modi 2 / Modi 2 Uber.

http://www.schiit.com/products/bifrost
Got to believe in the multibit sound. Can't compare it to DS.

The only thing I would fault Atomicbob for would be not giving the caveat that the measurements are terrible by the standards of even a mediocre DS DAC. Now if he wants to further clarify that to him it sounds great I'm not going to complain but the lack of perspective leads to situations like this where many people seemed to think the Bifrost Multibit measurements by Atomicbob showed the Bifrost Multibit to be good when it's not even close to a DS DAC 1/10 of the price.

Yes exactly, and this is where the lack of transparency starts. Because he talked about "excellence" when its not even close. Subjectivity is to be taken with a grain of salt because as what some people have posted above, its hard for people to trust their ears. And your perspective of gear really depends on what you have heard.
For me I could tell the difference between Modi Multibit and SMSL M8 because I had the M8 and the D30 before, and I bought into the marketing to think that it should blow those other 2 devices away. But to my ears it didn't even come close.
Whoooooo boy, if the Bifrost MB measurements were controversial, the Modi MB results may incite rioting :eek: the number of owners is very high. If they are again in general agreement with Atomicbob's, it looks like they will tell a similar story to the Bifrost MB. Although, the linearity looks to be better (around 70 dB by his measurements).
Would be interesting if Modi Multibit is actually better considering that its supposed to be built with inferior components and only really share the DAC chip and part of the input stage or so.
 

maul

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Yeah, 4490 is the regular version - would love to see it for a delta-sigma comparison.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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FYI, I purchased the Modi Multibit and have measurements of that already. :)
That's great and since you own it you will have the ability/time to seriously listen to it. Use the SPDIF input.
 

FrivolsListener

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First time poster, came over from Head-Fi.

I wanted to make comments on this thread from after reading it. (Disclaimer: I have generally been pleased with Schiit.)

1. Yes, Jason is thin-skinned. I've told him that, and I think he knows it, but he says he will deal with anyone who is civil who goes through email to him or otherwise contact him through channels.

2. Mike is a little tougher, but he isn't the *sole* moderator of his thread. When someone calls Jude and tells him to clean out references to this site or SBAF, the mods go to work. (Honestly, was that *necessary?* I really don't like that Head-Fi cleans out references to other forums (fora?) as a policy, but I can't blame them if they get those kinds of calls.)

3. @amirm, this is your spot. I'll try not to crap on it. But you did, after all, come in on Mike's thread with a seagull to drop a load with your report. I don't think it is too much to ask 1) what your test setup is, 2) your instruments and version, and 3) how your instruments' settings are. I think the complaint against that was legit. Starting a separate thread would probably have been more appropriate, but if the object was to point out this forum, the thread would have been modded away (see 2, above).

4. I'm always interested in other gear and information. I'd be glad to know what you have and why you believe in it. Although this may be heresy to say in this forum, ultimately we listen with our ears. And it was with my ears that I heard Mike and Jason's work. There was another amp before I bought one from them, and there was another DAC before I bought one from them.

5. To a couple people banned from Mike's thread: he does have one policy that he will airlock someone who insults another member in that thread. I never saw the offending posts. Again, I can't blame him.

6. Since this is a *measurement* forum, I look forward to @anirm 's plan to write up his test setup. I also look forward to reading what is posted here.

I hope this post stands. As they used to say on usenet, flames to /dev/null, please.
 
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amirm

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3. @amirm, this is your spot. I'll try not to crap on it. But you did, after all, come in on Mike's thread with a seagull to drop a load with your report. I don't think it is too much to ask 1) what your test setup is, 2) your instruments and version, and 3) how your instruments' settings are. I think the complaint against that was legit. Starting a separate thread would probably have been more appropriate, but if the object was to point out this forum, the thread would have been modded away (see 2, above).
Welcome to the forum. I have since created such a thread. Please see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

As to starting other threads, that is improper. When my work is questioned in a thread and the question remains there, then the answer needs to go there. The same set of people don't go and read other threads.

On top of that Jason specifically told me to go to Mike's thread. So I did. After just a few posts, they proceed to delete my posts and give me a reply ban. This is just unprofessional and unfriendly. Either the forum management or Mike/Jason could have reached out privately to me and asked me to not post. They did not and I was asked to comment on a point which I reluctantly did. With the predictable outcome of getting a reply ban.

5. To a couple people banned from Mike's thread: he does have one policy that he will airlock someone who insults another member in that thread. I never saw the offending posts. Again, I can't blame him.
I was exceptionally polite to a fault. I could have easily challenged him to produce their own measurements and not create smoke by saying my device is broken. Or send me a new unit to test. I did none of that. He could not receive a more gentle treatment from me than he did. Yet he still banned me from the thread when I did not break any forum rules or even etiquette in this thread. His own customers want answers and he is taking the oxygen out of the room on them.

I hope this post stands. As they used to say on usenet, flames to /dev/null, please.
Did you say /dev/null? You are not another Unix/Linux guy like I am, are you? :)

BTW, this is not at all a measurement forum. We are an audio science/engineering forum plus we like to have fun. Measurements are just a component of what we do. We have lots of in-depth discussions, articles, etc. on all topics related to audio. Psychoacoustics plays a big role here and we firmly believe in controlled listening tests.
 

FrivolsListener

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Welcome to the forum. I have since created such a thread. Please see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

As to starting other threads, that is improper. When my work is questioned in a thread and the question remains there, then the answer needs to go there. The same set of people don't go and read other threads.

On top of that Jason specifically told me to go to Mike's thread. So I did. After just a few posts, they proceed to delete my posts and give me a reply ban. This is just unprofessional and unfriendly. Either the forum management or Mike/Jason could have reached out privately to me and asked me to not post. They did not and I was asked to comment on a point which I reluctantly did. With the predictable outcome of getting a reply ban.


I was exceptionally polite to a fault. I could have easily challenged him to produce their own measurements and not create smoke by saying my device is broken. Or send me a new unit to test. I did none of that. He could not receive a more gentle treatment from me than he did. Yet he still banned me from the thread when I did not break any forum rules or even etiquette in this thread. His own customers want answers and he is taking the oxygen out of the room on them.


Did you say /dev/null? You are not another Unix/Linux guy like I am, are you? :)

BTW, this is not at all a measurement forum. We are an audio science/engineering forum plus we like to have fun. Measurements are just a component of what we do. We have lots of in-depth discussions, articles, etc. on all topics related to audio. Psychoacoustics plays a big role here and we firmly believe in controlled listening tests.

If you know what usenet is, you know the answer tot hat.

Generally, starting a thread on head-fi is the normal approach. They do things their way; you do them yours.

The "they" that deleted your post were almost certainly head-fi mods and not Mike. They are very zealous about removing links to other audio sites. HOWEVER, a poster upthread said they called Jude and told him to yank the references. What would you do if someone called you and told you to remove links? (I don't know the language used. Best seek out that user. I read all 25 pages of this before posting!)

I had just finished reading your thread on your methodology. Thank you for posting that. Very informative.

I will keep an open mind and procure a DAC you have reviewed for comparison. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and what persuaded me that there might be something to this multibit crap was when I had a, "Holy crap! Where did *that* come from?" revelation in an otherwise unremarkable piece of music.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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I will keep an open mind and procure a DAC you have reviewed for comparison. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and what persuaded me that there might be something to this multibit crap was when I had a, "Holy crap! Where did *that* come from?" revelation in an otherwise unremarkable piece of music.
So your listening experience has been very positive when using a Schiit Multi-bit DAC.
 
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amirm

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The "they" that deleted your post were almost certainly head-fi mods and not Mike. They are very zealous about removing links to other audio sites.
I did not post any links. It was the SBAF people who post links and got that deleted. I was responding to someone asking a technical question on the difference between signal to noise ratio and linearity.
 
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amirm

amirm

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I will keep an open mind and procure a DAC you have reviewed for comparison. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and what persuaded me that there might be something to this multibit crap was when I had a, "Holy crap! Where did *that* come from?" revelation in an otherwise unremarkable piece of music.
This unfortunately happens even when the sound has not changed. It is common for people to say, "I expected to not like it but I did." That pre-bias does NOT remove the faults from sighted listening.

Our hearing is elastic and all it takes is paying attention (which we always do when comparing) and we hear new detail we never "heard" (noticed) before.
 

FrivolsListener

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So your listening experience has been very positive when using a Schiit Multi-bit DAC.

Yes. My first reaction was, "what did I spend the money on?" It was a surprise track from an old CD (1985). Mike Moffat had said in reply that the particular CD was a reference that they used at Theta Digital.
 

FrivolsListener

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I did not post any links. It was the SBAF people who post links and got that deleted. I was responding to someone asking a technical question on the difference between signal to noise ratio and linearity.

You posted a link back to here. How do you think I found this place? :)
 

FrivolsListener

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This unfortunately happens even when the sound has not changed. It is common for people to say, "I expected to not like it but I did." That pre-bias does NOT remove the faults from sighted listening.

Our hearing is elastic and all it takes is paying attention (which we always do when comparing) and we hear new detail we never "heard" (noticed) before.

It wasn't an immediate reaction. I bought the thing with the 15 day return policy in mind, and my first impressions were, "meh." I just stumbled on the recording because I wanted to listen to that album. I've had a couple tracks shock me like that.
 
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