• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,405
I bought two very recent LPs that seemed to have the same level of compression as the LPs...
When I was a youthful rock and roller, I remember buying Todd Rundgren's Wizard/Star record. Todd's liner notes bragged about how he squeezed more music per side than was possible, and because of that he advised the home listener to crank it up. He was right, because all the tracks were massively compressed.

I'm not really in to the Rundgren scene anymore, but always wondered whether his remastered CD took out that horrible compression? I think that one record was probably the most compressed I ever heard.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
When I was a youthful rock and roller, I remember buying Todd Rundgren's Wizard/Star record. Todd's liner notes bragged about how he squeezed more music per side than was possible, and because of that he advised the home listener to crank it up. He was right, because all the tracks were massively compressed.

I'm not really in to the Rundgren scene anymore, but always wondered whether his remastered CD took out that horrible compression? I think that one record was probably the most compressed I ever heard.
Then there's Elvis Costello's "Get Happy". Owned both the US and UK LPs. Cd is [are] so much better, it's sick. Yes, bought multiple [different] copies with different masterings of that, getting into an "E.C." mood then quickly getting out.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
I meant the CD will not sound better than the Vinyl simply because you can't get more information out of the original source which is in this case the Vinyl master. Thats why Steven Wilson is always looking for the so cald "not use master" which probably is the master with full dynamic ranbge which can't be used for vinyl esspecialy if there is lots of bass lows in the needle will leave the groove. This link explaind a lot found it quite revealing . https://www.laweekly.com/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl/

I think you're not understanding what a vinyl master is.

The vinyl master is never the original master.

Vinyl masters are derived from the original masters and have to have all sorts of changes made to allow a lathe to cut.

Maybe in some weird case the original and safety master tapes are completely lost and the only surviving copies are vinyl masters, but that's a rare corner case...

I don't know of any [EDIT] any current production CD made from a vinyl master, personally.
 
Last edited:

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I think you're not understanding what a vinyl master is.

The vinyl master is never the original master.

Vinyl masters are derived from the original masters and have to have all sorts of changes made to allow a lathe to cut.

Maybe in some weird case the original master tapes are completely lost and the only surviving copies are vinyl masters, but that's a rare corner case...

I don't know of any CD made from a vinyl master, personally.
My understanding is that a number of early CDs were made from the first tape they could grab. Simon and Garfunkel comes to mind.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
My understanding is that a number of early CDs were made from the first tape they could grab. Simon and Garfunkel comes to mind.

Yeah, maybe.

Lots of dumb stuff happened when CDs were new.

But surely they would have fixed that by now unless they lost the original Simon and Garfunkel masters completely.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Yeah, maybe.

Lots of dumb stuff happened when CDs were new.

But surely they would have fixed that by now unless they lost the Simon and Garfunkel masters completely.
Yes, the remasters are hunky-dory. There was a green box reissue of those early transfers, sucked. On the other hand, the early pressings on vinyl of "Bookends" are about as good as LPs ever get, save for the noisy vinyl they were pressed on. Paul Simon is something of an OCD guy when it comes to production, Roy Hallee really knows his business.
 

paulraphael

Active Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
262
Likes
367
Location
Brooklyn, NY
vinyl-new-yorker.jpg
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
That was the appeal to me, but it really pales compared to the expense and inconvenience of reel to reel....

LP feels like EZ Mode compared to tape. ;)
Nothing quite like going from an ok [Thorens] turntable to a Tascam 32 [for editing], to a Sony 501 ES ADC. Downhill all the way.

pcm-501es.jpg
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
TASCAM 32?

Ewww. ;)

Regardless of machine, though, I'm still not fast at tape threading.
I'm gonna bet you never heard what comes out of the ass end of a Sony 501 ES ADC.
Yeah, the Tascam 32 is the definitive choice for a Punk demo, gives everything that extra "crunch". The end result of all of this would be a "Music From The Hearts Of Space" broadcast of classical music, "Spacemusic" run through a satellite, requiring the kind of digital data compression nobody wants to talk about anymore. It's this sort of thing that gave "Digital" such a bad rep. "And I helped!"
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
I'm gonna bet you never heard what comes out of the ass end of a Sony 501 ES ADC.
Yeah, the Tascam 32 is the definitive choice for a Punk demo, gives everything that extra "crunch". The end result of all of this would be a "Music From The Hearts Of Space" broadcast of classical music, "Spacemusic" run through a satellite, requiring the kind of digital data compression nobody wants to talk about anymore. It's this sort of thing that gave "Digital" such a bad rep. "And I helped!"

Nope. I've never used a Sony standalone ADC.

I don't know how it compared to what was built into the DATs.
 

Snarfie

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
1,169
Likes
925
Location
Netherlands
I think you're not understanding what a vinyl master is.

The vinyl master is never the original master.

Vinyl masters are derived from the original masters and have to have all sorts of changes made to allow a lathe to cut.

Maybe in some weird case the original master tapes are completely lost and the only surviving copies are vinyl masters, but that's a rare corner case...

I don't know of any [EDIT] any current production CD made from a vinyl master, personally.
Yes an those original masters are called/labeld sometimes "Don't use Master". In the 80ties some Vinyl master are sometimes used for producing CD's so the quality of those CD's are not better than the original Vinyl records besides pops an clicks vinyl background noise. however if the original masters or so called "Don't use masters" where used you can bet that the dynamic range would be there on a CD an sound much better. Thats why the Steven Wilson remixes (who prefers to use the original master) sound more dynamic than the orginal Vinyl record because Vinyl has his limitation regarding Dynamic range and narrow grooves at the end of the record an so on.
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
however if the original masters or so called "Don't use masters" where used you can bet that the dynamic range would be there on a CD an sound much better.

Well, as regards to dynamic range:

Maybe.

If the musical content is within the dynamic range capabilities of LP, then the LP itself isn't the constraining factor on DR.

Dynamic range of LP is ~65-70 dB, which is more than many genres of music need.

There are still other LP issues (IGD, w&f, bass mono, etc), but dynamic range of LP is pretty adequate for many genres of music, although not all (e.g. large scale orchestral).
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Yes an those original masters are called/labeld sometimes "Don't use Master".

When I was performing remasterings of music soundtracks for several films older films, one very famous movie I worked with had tape masters which were unusable. Therefore many music selections in the film's theatrical re-release were derived from vinyl of the music, played on my Thorens TD-125MKII. I meticulously removed all the ticks and pops using the manual waveform 're-drawing' tool in ProTools - it took hours and days. I'm sure this film is in most of your collections. ;)
 
OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
however if the original masters or so called "Don't use masters" where used you can bet that the dynamic range would be there on a CD an sound much better.

Also....

If the original source is analog tape, you're still constrained by that, anyway.

15 IPS analog tape DR isn't even close the 96 dB of CD. *Maybe* 70-75 dB with NR.

There are a lot of things that analog sucks at, but except for bombastic classical pieces, DR on playback (DR during editing is a different issue) isn't the weakest link in the chain when it comes to capturing most music.

Wow & flutter is more bothersome to me, especially as a bass player.

Tremolo can get really jacked up by bad w&f.
 

anmpr1

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
3,722
Likes
6,405
I have some Mobile Fidelity Labs LPs that sound great compared to regular LPs, but they are not as good as the digital version.
I mentioned this before... I had a Rolling Stones MFSL LP that was amazing, sonic-wise. You could hear all sorts of things separate in the mix that was not present in the regular LP, at least in the same way. But the strange thing: it didn't sound like what I thought a Rolling Stones record should sound like. One of the trademarks of the band was their compressed and 'sloppy' raw sound. LOL
 
Top Bottom