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Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

Thomas savage

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That is very Nobel of you. There should be a prize for that!
I got a prize, I get to be me until I die..

I don’t really understand the prize , I mean I dont really know what ‘me’ is but it’s bloody great or at least that’s what atomicBob would tell you if he measured me ...
 

Candlesticks

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qcHYDIj.png


I just got off the phone with Jude. I told him that he better start removing references to Changstar or SBAF starting a few years ago. He complied of course.

Best accusation yet though.
 

Blumlein 88

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Correct, the forum is funded by amir other than the recent initiative asking for member donations.
Asking for donations can actually make people feel more involved, more apart of what we are doing so it serves a purpose beyond just the financial one.

If this site ever takes on manufacturer sponsorship in any way shape or form you will know because I won’t be here.

Would you make an exception if the sponsorship was from a purveyor of Fish and Chips. :p

Now on the other hand we understand how popcorn sponsorship might be problematic on the internet.
 

Wombat

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I got a prize, I get to be me until I die..

I don’t really understand the prize , I mean I dont really know what ‘me’ is but it’s bloody great or at least that’s what atomicBob would tell you if he measured of me ...

Nowadays, an honesty and integrity medal is needed in audio. I'll give you a subjective one objectively. ;)

I just forfeited mine for sucking-up to a moderator. :D
 

rebbiputzmaker

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You guys at Schiit have to work on Sundays?

Eric
You reinforce the ignorance that is exhibited by a few here. ( moderator edit, removal of political content)
 
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Jimster480

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If you are buying random cheap products from anywhere it's probably not going to turn out well. SMSL and Topping could well have been selling terrible products 5 years ago and could well be doing that today. At the same time some of their products may also be very good. I suspect a lot of their products are designs off a shelf by an OEM which is completely fine if the design is good. No need to reinvent wheels.
Its not the case for Topping, their designs are not off shelf OEM designs and they build by analyzer test.
So they are a company researching measurement performance and building products based on it.
 

Jimster480

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Certainly didn't mean to imply that measurements were all that this forum is about...it was more an observation of some folks' comments in this particular thread.

Nice article by the way...took me back to my early 2 channel days. :) I traded my stacked DQ-10s for those exact Acoustats (bad move); eventually moved on to stacked Quads and then Magnepans.

Agreed about measurements...they are a useful arrow in the quiver for evaluating products/companies/etc. and I appreciate when independent reviewers make the effort to do this and publish their results.

In Schiit's case, the Bimby distortion measurements are called out on their own site as being slightly inferior (THD: <0.005%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.008%, CCIR) compared to the Bifrost DS (THD: <0.003%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.004%, CCIR) and Modi DS (THD: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output; IMD: <0.003%, CCIR) models. So...if people are assuming a superior objective performance, then they're not reading Schiit's published specs.

When I bought my Valhalla 2, I was well aware that it was one of the poorest 'performing' amps that Schiit makes. That said, it's a great pairing for my Senns and Beyers!

Similarly, I knew their Multibit products had 'lesser' measurements. I bought the Bimby because I was interested in the Multibit technology conceptually, it was upgradeable, and, tbh, it visually matches the Valhalla 2. :eek:

Regarding the Bifrost in question, it makes sense to me to get it repaired if it's 'broken' and re-measure it. If nothing changes in the measurements, then at least everyone will know. That said, educating people on why they should care about the measurements when the DAC sounds just fine to them may be a tough ask...

Your comments on DBTs for DAC differences confirm what I suspected. Not a surprise really. Again, nice you made the effort to explore this and document it! As you stated, consumers don't have the time, resources, etc. to perform these tests...so any help from reviewers on this front is greatly appreciated.

Everything is also based on experience.
In that statement what I am quantifying is that if you have no better sounding gear or do not have experience with better sounding gear, then the gear you have will sound "fine" to your ears. Just like people still watching Standard definition TV after all these years and don't understand the benefits of HD because they have always watched SD and never spent any time watching HD.
My grandmother was one of those people, until her old SD TV died a couple years back. On her new HDTV she was upset because her analog cable box didn't work anymore. Eventually when she got everything upgraded to HDTV she now realizes the difference.

I used to walk home with $10 Sony earbuds and my Sony Minidisc player with 56KBPS VBR Tracks, it sounded fine to me at that time. But neither sounds fine to me today.
 

Blumlein 88

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You reinforce the ignorance that is exhibited by a few here. Do you work for the current US administration?

Dude spell out the ignorance. I think you'll find much fewer here as ignorant as you think. I think the experience factor here is much higher than you believe.

You have this idea that so many here have no experience of really, really good gear. I say you are wrong about this.
 

GearMe

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Everything is also based on experience.
In that statement what I am quantifying is that if you have no better sounding gear or do not have experience with better sounding gear, then the gear you have will sound "fine" to your ears. Just like people still watching Standard definition TV after all these years and don't understand the benefits of HD because they have always watched SD and never spent any time watching HD.
My grandmother was one of those people, until her old SD TV died a couple years back. On her new HDTV she was upset because her analog cable box didn't work anymore. Eventually when she got everything upgraded to HDTV she now realizes the difference.

I used to walk home with $10 Sony earbuds and my Sony Minidisc player with 56KBPS VBR Tracks, it sounded fine to me at that time. But neither sounds fine to me today.

Thanks for the reply!

I'm not sure I get your point if it's directed at my personal listening experience -- given I've had the opportunity to listen to a wide variety of equipment; most of which has/had perfectly acceptable measurements.

On the other hand, if it's a generalized statement about the 'overall listening public'...I guess that's true. However, I'm not sure it's applicable to the majority of folks on these types of forums....as I believe that most of them have had the opportunity to listen to 'good' equipment.

I still default to the premise that most of today's equipment (especially DACs) would be hard/impossible to differentiate in a DBT. @amirm agreed with this premise in his reply to my earlier post...

"In the past I have done blind tests of DACs and as you say, differences are impossible to spot outside of the DACs that bleed noise from computers. " - AmirM

Again, for my $$$/time/etc., the transducers are the equipment that make/break my listening experience as long as the amp can properly power them.
 

Thomas savage

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A polite reminder, I don’t want to see harsh personal insults on the forum . Have a joke, take the piss a bit but make it amusing / lighthearted.

If you have gripes about other forums they are best expressed on those forums, from what Iv seen of the places linked on this thread There’s a lot of mindless following , group think and tribal angst about.

I aim to keep those things to a minimum here plus this is not a safe vantage to throw stones at others either .

Cheers
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Dude spell out the ignorance. I think you'll find much fewer here as ignorant as you think. I think the experience factor here is much higher than you believe.

You have this idea that so many here have no experience of really, really good gear. I say you are wrong about this.
Really lol anyone with a different opinion is a shill??? I actually had to explain that. Are you serious?
 

Wombat

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We are entitled to have personal opinions but not all opinions are equal. Once an opinion is placed in the open it can be considered by others. Rational consideration judges the value of the opinion by the substantiated valid supporting evidence proffered.

A poorly supported opinion falls into the category of affectation and when it is put out by someone with intent to deceive it is called rhetoric.
 
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dallasjustice

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Multibit/ladder DACs bring out the most passionate pleas from their advocates. I made a contribution to one the most popular threads on WBF before my number got retired there. I was the first US owner of a TotalDAC. I upgraded to an even more gigantic TotalDAC. My time with the TotalDac reminds me of the time spent with a turntable. It was filled with highs and lows. But I never felt comfortable that I was getting everything out of my system. Via open minded exploration I learned what it was that I loved about it. And I learned how I had made another expensive mistake.

There are distortions that some DACs can produce which are quite pleasing to most listeners. For example, the TotalDac has a rolled off high end because it lacked a digital anti-aliasing filter. The DAC had FIR filter to flatten out the top end. I preferred the less accurate setting. Later on in my audio journey I learned about listening test done by Harman which show listeners prefer a rolled off high end. That was about the same time I began to investigate DSP solutions.

So why do we do all these measurements if we know people don’t necessarily prefer the most accurate reproduction of the recording? I think it’s still helpful. In the end, the listener can choose to inject whatever distortion/nonlinearity he/she chooses. To do so, it’s helpful for the listener to know what types of distortions are preferred and which ones are not. It’s also important to have a standard or baseline in any endeavor. Without foundational basics, we can hardly communicate with each other to express our own preferences and desires. We can build from the baseline and move into more accurate ways to “distort” the signal in a way that is consistently pleasing.
 

Wombat

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Multibit/ladder DACs bring out the most passionate pleas from their advocates. I made a contribution to one the most popular threads on WBF before my number got retired there. I was the first US owner of a TotalDAC. I upgraded to an even more gigantic TotalDAC. My time with the TotalDac reminds me of the time spent with a turntable. It was filled with highs and lows. But I never felt comfortable that I was getting everything out of my system. Via open minded exploration I learned what it was that I loved about it. And I learned how I had made another expensive mistake.

There are distortions that some DACs can produce which are quite pleasing to most listeners. For example, the TotalDac has a rolled off high end because it lacked a digital anti-aliasing filter. The DAC had FIR filter to flatten out the top end. I preferred the less accurate setting. Later on in my audio journey I learned about listening test done by Harman which show listeners prefer a rolled off high end. That was about the same time I began to investigate DSP solutions.

So why do we do all these measurements if we know people don’t necessarily prefer the most accurate reproduction of the recording? I think it’s still helpful. In the end, the listener can choose to inject whatever distortion/nonlinearity he/she chooses. To do so, it’s helpful for the listener to know what types of distortions are preferred and which ones are not. It’s also important to have a standard or baseline in any endeavor. Without foundational basics, we can hardly communicate with each other to express our own preferences and desires. We can build from the baseline and move into more accurate ways to “distort” the signal in a way that is consistently pleasing.


Well put.:)
 

Blumlein 88

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Really lol anyone with a different opinion is a shill??? I actually had to explain that. Are you serious?

I didn't use the word shill. I know it wasn't even in my mind when i wrote my post. You thus far have implied things without saying anything much. At least until I understand you better, it would facilitate communication if you were more direct.

Reiterating, you seem to have the idea many here have opinions from a position of naivety regarding really high quality gear or a wide variety of gear. I'm at a loss to see how that equals calling you a shill.
 

svart-hvitt

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Multibit/ladder DACs bring out the most passionate pleas from their advocates. I made a contribution to one the most popular threads on WBF before my number got retired there. I was the first US owner of a TotalDAC. I upgraded to an even more gigantic TotalDAC. My time with the TotalDac reminds me of the time spent with a turntable. It was filled with highs and lows. But I never felt comfortable that I was getting everything out of my system. Via open minded exploration I learned what it was that I loved about it. And I learned how I had made another expensive mistake.

There are distortions that some DACs can produce which are quite pleasing to most listeners. For example, the TotalDac has a rolled off high end because it lacked a digital anti-aliasing filter. The DAC had FIR filter to flatten out the top end. I preferred the less accurate setting. Later on in my audio journey I learned about listening test done by Harman which show listeners prefer a rolled off high end. That was about the same time I began to investigate DSP solutions.

So why do we do all these measurements if we know people don’t necessarily prefer the most accurate reproduction of the recording? I think it’s still helpful. In the end, the listener can choose to inject whatever distortion/nonlinearity he/she chooses. To do so, it’s helpful for the listener to know what types of distortions are preferred and which ones are not. It’s also important to have a standard or baseline in any endeavor. Without foundational basics, we can hardly communicate with each other to express our own preferences and desires. We can build from the baseline and move into more accurate ways to “distort” the signal in a way that is consistently pleasing.

@dallasjustice , given your experience with exquisite gear, have you encountered MSB?

http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/why-ladder-dacs/

Any thoughts?
 

rebbiputzmaker

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I didn't use the word shill. I know it wasn't even in my mind when i wrote my post. You thus far have implied things without saying anything much. At least until I understand you better, it would facilitate communication if you were more direct.

Reiterating, you seem to have the idea many here have opinions from a position of naivety regarding really high quality gear or a wide variety of gear. I'm at a loss to see how that equals calling you a shill.
Will do this one more time with you.
At lease you have found a home as you really cannot do this at CA.

"Eric Auer said:
You guys at Schiit have to work on Sundays?" Please put it in google translate, thank you.

As far a your word "naivety" give yourself another 40 or 50 years and if you are lucky you might have half the knowledge I do. I am not sandyk so I will not be lashing back at you as this is your MO, provoking people. Have a wonderful life.

 

Wombat

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Will do this one more time with you.
At lease you have found a home as you really cannot do this at CA.

"Eric Auer said:
You guys at Schiit have to work on Sundays?" Please put it in google translate, thank you.

As far a your word "naivety" give yourself another 40 or 50 years and if you are lucky you might have half the knowledge I do. I am not sandyk so I will not be lashing back at you as this is your MO, provoking people. Have a wonderful life.



Pure RHETORIC. Give the rational folk here some rest and stop being so provocative! Enough of the kvetch, already. :(:confused::cool:o_O:eek:

Statement, statement, statement ..............., with no substance behind them. Wrong forum, MATE.
IMNSHO.
 
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