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You want transparency don't you......well DON'T YOU????

svart-hvitt

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So, politics, blaming problems on the users for not having the right equipment or not understanding or enough expertise to know how to set it up, and engineers who can't understand what good sound is because their speakers are not good enough. What site is this again?

Don’t misunderstand me :)

I have great respect for mastering engineers. But I also think they are victims of fashion and habit; progress happens from funeral to funeral.

The digital era has come of age. No magic anymore. So why look backward, when audio was muddy? Why not embrace what digital marketed 30-40 years ago?

And when it comes to «clarity»: How would you know what is clarity if you are over 30 years old and a victim of fashion and habit? When people talk about Kii, DD and TheOnes I think «clarity» is the common denominator. These speakers are only 5-10 years old if we include the R&D period. And on such speakers «muddiness» is not a virtue.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Big difference between anecdotal reports of I hear drive noise or mouse clicks. Versus swapping USB cables the soundstage expands, I feel closer to the music, things seem more musical.
Sorry if I was not clear. I was commenting on a report on another board a user stated xyz brand dac was noisy and the Schiit dac the person owned did not have the same problem. The point was that since this is a problem that can vary system to system, dac to dac, more investigation might be appropriate.
 

Thomas savage

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Sorry if I was not clear. I was commenting on a report on another board a user stated xyz brand dac was noisy and the Schiit dac the person owned did not have the same problem. The point was that since this is a problem that can vary system to system, dac to dac, more investigation might be appropriate.
The manufacturers just need to publish their measurements..

Your going after the wrong people really but..
 

rebbiputzmaker

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The manufacturers just need to publish their measurements..

Your going after the wrong people really but..
True, published measurements are good. I am not going after anyone. But in the case of usb noise it is not always that simple.

What about the problem of AC lines being polluted by crappy switching power supplies? How many here use isolation for their digital equipment?
 

Candlesticks

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True, published measurements are good. I am not going after anyone. But in the case of usb noise it is not always that simple.

What about the problem of AC lines being polluted by crappy switching power supplies? How many here use isolation for their digital equipment?

One has a problem from that USB port and a cheaper DAC has no problem from the same USB port. It's that simple.
 

blackmetalboon

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True, published measurements are good. I am not going after anyone. But in the case of usb noise it is not always that simple.

What about the problem of AC lines being polluted by crappy switching power supplies? How many here use isolation for their digital equipment?

But how do we know that the SMPS’s are crappy? How much of this is just Audiophile myth?
 

Cosmik

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@Cosmik , my point in my above post is actually (sorry for not being clear) that 70s recordings are muddier than 2010s recordings. Not all the time, but when great engineers use today’s best tool, the result is magnificent.

2L and Morten Lindberg have been nominated for Grammy 32 (label) and 24 times (Lindberg as leading technician for 2L). Try out this 2L favorite of mine (especially at this time of year), «Stille, stille vinternatt»:

https://tidal.com/album/18151467 https://tidal.com/album/18151467

I think this is a good example of digital tools in the hands of competent engineers. In my ears, this shows that engineers should aim for cleaner sound than in past decades. With DSP and SOTA speakers it’s easier than before to distinguish between muddy sound and clean sound. I am afraid some engineers don’t have speakers with enough clarity to understand this. «Clarity» in lack of a better word, may be what sets old and new speakers apart.
Hi svart-hvitt. I wasn't actually referring to any of your posts; just the general idea that anyone wouldn't want transparency in their audio system - which, increasingly, they seem to be persuaded not to. Thanks for the link - I will listen.
 

Dimitri

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I have great respect for mastering engineers
/Rant on
What respect should one have for a ME that works at a studio called "Loud Recording Studio" , "Loud Mastering Studio" or "Going Loud Studios"? Yikes.

I lost a lot of that once I started buying CDs that at first thought it was an "accident" or the work of some "idiot". Fast forward we find out about it's called the "CD loudness wars". Which in my mind reduces ME to mercenaries, guns for hire, just "following orders", paycheck hunters, but I should stop before I start using insulting terms.

Which brings me to some other rant about company names.......
When I first saw thee name of the heavily debated Valencia Company, I first though it was someone last name and how unfortunate that was. But hey, your name is your name. Say it loud, say it proud. Just because your last name is Water and your parents decided to name you "Dirty" , not your fault .

Then I come to realize, that the company name seems to be "manufactured" and the shop is called a more colorful version of toilet.
Yikes again.
They should have gone with "Distorted Fidelity", or "Digital Distortion" (crap that already exists https://digitaldistortionrecords.bandcamp.com !), or even "Deaf Group Audio".

Respect. It doesn't grow on trees, and certainly not on rocks.


/Rant pause
 

Frank Dernie

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I am happy you feel you have nothing more to learn, especially from a mere heathen such as myself. Blindingly obvious, good choice of words. Would be much easier for some if the world was just black and white, but luckily for humankind there are many shades of gray, and even colors. :)
I didn't say I had nothing more to learn. In fact I always say a day when one learns nothing new is a day wasted.
What I am saying is that you are preaching a very old sermon which, in my experience, has been debunked even though it has many disciples.
 

Frank Dernie

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I think this is a misquote. He actually said:
"I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong".
I may have over simplified his actual words but I am still quite sure I accurately translated it :)
 

Ceburaska

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I may have over simplified his actual words but I am still quite sure I accurately translated it :)
Probably best to keep the politics out of it.
We’ve got enough hoo hah over simply measuring a DAC.
 

Frank Dernie

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Probably best to keep the politics out of it.
We’ve got enough hoo hah over simply measuring a DAC.
Nothing to do with politics and all to do with ignoring facts when they conflict with an opinion. This is relatively new behaviour IME, I never saw anything like this in hifi when I first bought some.
 

Thomas savage

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Nothing to do with politics and all to do with ignoring facts when they conflict with an opinion. This is relatively new behaviour IME, I never saw anything like this in hifi when I first bought some.
Agree, it was just a quote nothing political about it , plain observation.
 

svart-hvitt

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Nothing to do with politics and all to do with ignoring facts when they conflict with an opinion. This is relatively new behaviour IME, I never saw anything like this in hifi when I first bought some.

Agree too. Given my background I may find more interest than most in how otherwise intelligent people face information and fact. I believe skepticism towards experts - even in something as simple, straightforward as electrical engineering and information theory - is bigger today than ever before. That would tell Amir to up his game in order to get his message through. He has already stated that he will write more about and document his working process. That sounds like a good idea for experts to confront skepticism, even if some skeptics will never leave their religious position.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Agree too. Given my background I may find more interest than most in how otherwise intelligent people face information and fact. I believe skepticism towards experts - even in something as simple, straightforward as electrical engineering and information theory - is bigger today than ever before. That would tell Amir to up his game in order to get his message through. He has already stated that he will write more about and document his working process. That sounds like a good idea for experts to confront skepticism, even if some skeptics will never leave their religious position.

What little info I know of, says people opposing an idea become hardened against the opposite viewpoint the more information they are provided with.

That goes for both religious people, and what otherwise seem to be rational objective people. Normal human reaction in some sense. Difficult thing to overcome.

Then you have complicated reality. Our highly esteemed, and rightly so member on things audio and hearing J_J once told me something couldn't be happening, and I have 100% certainty it was. I didn't make me stop listening to J_J. He was a big influence helping me get my head out of my own rear end on audio matters. This was way back in the usenet days.

Condensing details, my CD player starting skipping oddly. It would play 4 seconds, skip backwards 3 second and keep on in that manner. A real head scratcher. I eventually determined a damaged outdoor sodium light was emitting some sort of noise causing this. There was no doubt. I could disconnect the light and CD player was perfect. Plug it in and CD player did this odd 4 steps forward 3 steps back skipping. I did it both ways several times. And a pre-eminent expert told me it wouldn't be so.

Now that is the value of empirical experiment. One doesn't get a pass on argument from authority (not that J_J himself was doing this only others agreeing with him). He was WRONG. (nor do I think J_J claims perfection). There was also one other incident he described as not happening though it too in fact was happening.

J_J once told me he could tell me how things worked as far as known, but if I wanted to take part in useful discussion he wasn't doing the homework for me. I had to get up to speed. Instead of being pissed, I asked him for guidance on getting up to speed. I'm thinking he doubted it would do any good. He gave me a couple of texts on hearing to start with. I purchased them, and studied them and learned a great deal. Since then I have thought all audio reviewers should be required to study such things if they wish to be taken seriously.

So I am not sure how you get people to change sides or change methodology. Just doubling down on facts rarely works. I have read from several sources someone can only benefit from a guide when they are ready for one. It certainly would help if the overly subjective audio press didn't start with the premise that objective facts mean nothing in audio. Combined with the increasing distrust of experts you have a real uphill battle.

So I owe @j_j a thanks and have gratitude he steered me the right way. The more I learned the more things make sense. Yet twice I could have put in my list the two times this esteemed expert was definitely wrong, and used it to bolster the idea his opinions were wrong-headed and beside the point.
 

svart-hvitt

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What little info I know of, says people opposing an idea become hardened against the opposite viewpoint the more information they are provided with.

That goes for both religious people, and what otherwise seem to be rational objective people. Normal human reaction in some sense. Difficult thing to overcome.

Then you have complicated reality. Our highly esteemed, and rightly so member on things audio and hearing J_J once told me something couldn't be happening, and I have 100% certainty it was. I didn't make me stop listening to J_J. He was a big influence helping me get my head out of my own rear end on audio matters. This was way back in the usenet days.

Condensing details, my CD player starting skipping oddly. It would play 4 seconds, skip backwards 3 second and keep on in that manner. A real head scratcher. I eventually determined a damaged outdoor sodium light was emitting some sort of noise causing this. There was no doubt. I could disconnect the light and CD player was perfect. Plug it in and CD player did this odd 4 steps forward 3 steps back skipping. I did it both ways several times. And a pre-eminent expert told me it wouldn't be so.

Now that is the value of empirical experiment. One doesn't get a pass on argument from authority (not that J_J himself was doing this only others agreeing with him). He was WRONG. (nor do I think J_J claims perfection). There was also one other incident he described as not happening though it too in fact was happening.

J_J once told me he could tell me how things worked as far as known, but if I wanted to take part in useful discussion he wasn't doing the homework for me. I had to get up to speed. Instead of being pissed, I asked him for guidance on getting up to speed. I'm thinking he doubted it would do any good. He gave me a couple of texts on hearing to start with. I purchased them, and studied them and learned a great deal. Since then I have thought all audio reviewers should be required to study such things if they wish to be taken seriously.

So I am not sure how you get people to change sides or change methodology. Just doubling down on facts rarely works. I have read from several sources someone can only benefit from a guide when they are ready for one. It certainly would help if the overly subjective audio press didn't start with the premise that objective facts mean nothing in audio. Combined with the increasing distrust of experts you have a real uphill battle.

So I owe @j_j a thanks and have gratitude he steered me the right way. The more I learned the more things make sense. Yet twice I could have put in my list the two times this esteemed expert was definitely wrong, and used it to bolster the idea his opinions were wrong-headed and beside the point.

You're very right. Changing one's and other's opinion is difficult; that's why I've spent so much time building up a framework for decisions in order to overcome biases. And even if you have the best framework in place, humans are humans; it seems in my experience like some are more wired for subjectivism than objectivism, which means it's an innate thing.

What I suggest Amir should do anyway is to standardize his measurements as much as possible and document and describe his process. This is a one-time job; a lot of effort, but it could be worthwhile after some time.

:)
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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@Cosmik , my point in my above post is actually (sorry for not being clear) that 70s recordings are muddier than 2010s recordings. Not all the time, but when great engineers use today’s best tool, the result is magnificent.

2L and Morten Lindberg have been nominated for Grammy 32 (label) and 24 times (Lindberg as leading technician for 2L). Try out this 2L favorite of mine (especially at this time of year), «Stille, stille vinternatt»:

https://tidal.com/album/18151467 https://tidal.com/album/18151467

I think this is a good example of digital tools in the hands of competent engineers. In my ears, this shows that engineers should aim for cleaner sound than in past decades. With DSP and SOTA speakers it’s easier than before to distinguish between muddy sound and clean sound. I am afraid some engineers don’t have speakers with enough clarity to understand this. «Clarity» in lack of a better word, may be what sets old and new speakers apart.


I agree with you. In my mind they represent some of the very finest recording currently done. Even more surprising is they get Grammy awards for it. I generally take a dim view of the Grammy awards.

Yet while they are minimalist, they aren't two microphone for two channel or even 5 microphones for 5 channels minimalist. They are doing an extraordinary job of balancing relatively simple and unprocessed sound with making a good sounding recording.

Two things I learned from recordings done by myself. It isn't all that hard to get a really nice recording that mimics reasonably well the real event. And no one for the most part wants that recording. They want a stylish improvement on real. Which is the genesis of this thread in fact.

Current gear even for relatively little money is stupid good. If you keep it simple you can't miss by too much. The two things you must have are good musicians and a good sounding space.

So when I hear some recordings done at great expense one could almost be brought to tears how they mess it up. And I am not talking about pop music. That is even worse with the loudness wars.

I had hopes more would learn this. Learn the very basics of recording. Record people who otherwise fall thru the cracks with simple inexpensive gear and get some notice. Yet everyone wants to sound like the big time studio guys. Those guys can be incredible in their skills in some sense. The issue is with good minimalist approaches and a sparse philosophy you don't need that stuff.
 

Ceburaska

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I am fed up with ignorance myself.
Like one of the right wing politicians said when recommending something ridiculous "people are fed up with experts", which actually means "I know sweet FA about the subject but I have a strong opinion which is not supported by any facts so I have chosen to abandon knowledge in order to maintain my opinion".

Weirdly, when someone uses the words left or right wing in a text I interpret that as being a political reference.
Apparently not. Good to learn that!
 

j_j

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Plug it in and CD player did this odd 4 steps forward 3 steps back skipping. I did it both ways several times. And a pre-eminent expert told me it wouldn't be so.

I will make an observation here. If it did that (and I believe you) it was BUSTED. Kaput. I almost always qualify things to say "if it's not broken".

There is lots of "interesting" hardware out there. "interestings" is not usually a compliment! :)
 
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