Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2

[Rodney Gold]

I have used just about all the DSP/DRC schemes/devices on earth.
Dirac is excellent ..
you could consider a Trinnov which is a LOT better but 10x the price

 

[12B4A]

Whoa, hi Rod!
<---Tom §.

 

[dallasjustice]

I just boxed up a pair of Salon 2's that I tried briefly, after selling a pair of 4367's that I had for some time. To sum it up; the Salons are a fine speaker, but in comparison did not have the snap (as when a drum stick strikes the drum edge and makes you blink and start), tonality, and infectious foot-tapping qualities that the JBL's had. How's that for an un-scientific, decidedly non-audiophile description?

The Salons do excel in portraying an airy, smooth sound stage, and they sound very nice on most of my recordings. After adjusting to the JBL's and their ruthless portrayal of the truth though, it was hard for me to accept the Revels. I prefer truth over shellac.

I will be bringing home a pair of M2's next week, but I have not decided upon which DSP and amplification to go with yet. I'll have a loaner JBL/Crown amp with DSP to start off with. I've listened to that amplifier on other speakers and wasn't much impressed. We'll see how things go on these.

I'm really interested in reading your thoughts DJ using your Benchmark amps. I've mentioned much of this on other forums that several of you also frequent, so please excuse me for repeating it here.

I'm also drawn to Acourate and Audiolense, though it's going to be a struggle for me as a decidedly dopey computer user.

I plan to start a new JBL M2 thread very soon. I got a little side tracked with a new subwoofer array. I will post my new measurements next week. @mitchco says he has listening position MDAT files from an M2 owner. Hopefully we can overlay the frequency and step plots to see how Audiolense does compared to the Harman crossovers and EQ. My money is on Audiolense.

I heartily recommend either using Acourate or Audiolense with the M2 and dumping the Harman DSP. You can’t use DIRAC because it does not do crossovers. IMO, Audiolense makes the most sense because you get great results (equal or better than Acourate) and it’s much easier to use and install the filters.

 

[dallasjustice]

The M2 is even better than the 4367.

 

[jtwrace]

Great seller selling his Salon 2's if anyone is interested.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155211.0

 

[Sal1950]

To sum it up; the Salons are a fine speaker, but in comparison did not have the snap (as when a drum stick strikes the drum edge and makes you blink and start), tonality, and infectious foot-tapping qualities that the JBL's had. How's that for an un-scientific, decidedly non-audiophile description?

Sounds like a perfect description to me.
Once you've been horny and your virginity has been broken, you can never accept less.

 

[stunta]

I plan to start a new JBL M2 thread very soon. I got a little side tracked with a new subwoofer array. I will post my new measurements next week. @mitchco says he has listening position MDAT files from an M2 owner. Hopefully we can overlay the frequency and step plots to see how Audiolense does compared to the Harman crossovers and EQ. My money is on Audiolense.

I heartily recommend either using Acourate or Audiolense with the M2 and dumping the Harman DSP. You can’t use DIRAC because it does not do crossovers. IMO, Audiolense makes the most sense because you get great results (equal or better than Acourate) and it’s much easier to use and install the filters.

I can't find a single YouTube video on Audiolense that shows me how to use it. When you say its easy to use and install the filters, is it easy for novices? Does it spit something out that can be loaded into Roon? Its quite pricey for something I wouldn't use on a regular basis, so wondering how idiot-proof it is. To set the reference, I find Roon to be pretty idiot-proof and yet has advanced options if one chooses to go that route. That is good design IMO.

 

[dallasjustice]

I can't find a single YouTube video on Audiolense that shows me how to use it. When you say its easy to use and install the filters, is it easy for novices? Does it spit something out that can be loaded into Roon? Its quite pricey for something I wouldn't use on a regular basis, so wondering how idiot-proof it is. To set the reference, I find Roon to be pretty idiot-proof and yet has advanced options if one chooses to go that route. That is good design IMO.

 

[DonH56]

I have been around horns but just never seemed to warm up to them. Modern horns are by and large much better than earlier models, of course, and their ability to produce high dynamic levels without high power requirements is a major plus. But, I'll stick with my non-horn models, with all their foibles. Horn-loaded woofers tend to require large cabinets, the tweeters tend to beam, and suboptimal horn designs lead to strange frequency aberrations. That said, I have never heard M2s, but the 4367's are very impressive. I was actually considering M2s but a good deal on Salon2's came up so I got them instead. I have found no problems with midrange sounds and suspect that was a desired response or some other issue. There are some speakers I have had issues with the midrange when it did not blend well with lower and higher frequencies.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[dallasjustice]

I’m using Roon’s convolver with filters generated by Audiolense in a 6 channel (3 way active setup). I’m getting 2 more subs and I’ll finally set up the M2 in a 8 channel (4 way) active setup.

 

[stunta]

What is "MSI"? Is Roon loading Audiolense as a plugin?

 

[dallasjustice]

What is "MSI"? Is Roon loading Audiolense as a plugin?

No. That’s just my computer’s name. Roon’s convolver works well now. So there’s no problem using the M2 with Roon. You just need to learn how to use Audiolense or Acourate. There’s a lot of good info out there. Here’s a great article @mitchco wrote on CA.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...nd-room-correction-software-walkthrough-r682/

 

[fitero]

Thank you for the suggestions.

As always, there are so many ways to skin a cat. I'm usually stuck for some time, like a deer in the headlights, agonizing until I make a decision.

I think I will buy Mitch Barnetts' book , a calibrated mic and play with REW a bit before spending money unnecessarily.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I plan to start a new JBL M2 thread very soon. I got a little side tracked with a new subwoofer array. I will post my new measurements next week. @mitchco says he has listening position MDAT files from an M2 owner. Hopefully we can overlay the frequency and step plots to see how Audiolense does compared to the Harman crossovers and EQ. My money is on Audiolense.

I heartily recommend either using Acourate or Audiolense with the M2 and dumping the Harman DSP. You can’t use DIRAC because it does not do crossovers. IMO, Audiolense makes the most sense because you get great results (equal or better than Acourate) and it’s much easier to use and install the filters.

Agreed, DJ, Dirac does not currently do bass crossovers or bass management. But, they have announced an intention to do that this year in a new release of the PC/Mac versions of the software.

I currently apply bass management crossovers ahead of Dirac in JRiver on my PC, which I use for playback of all sources.

 

[Deleted member 65]

Thank you for the suggestions.

As always, there are so many ways to skin a cat. I'm usually stuck for some time, like a deer in the headlights, agonizing until I make a decision.

I think I will buy Mitch Barnetts' book , a calibrated mic and play with REW a bit before spending money unnecessarily.

Start here - - > https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...om-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-1.4/
then here - - > https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...om-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-2.5/
then we'll wait for Amir's third writeup on the subject ... ;-)

 

[dallasjustice]

Thank you for the suggestions.

As always, there are so many ways to skin a cat. I'm usually stuck for some time, like a deer in the headlights, agonizing until I make a decision.

I think I will buy Mitch Barnetts' book , a calibrated mic and play with REW a bit before spending money unnecessarily.

Download REW and get a calibrated measurement mic and a USB DAC/ADC with mic pre.

Good cheap calibrated measurement mic:
http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_dayton.html

Good cheap DAC/ADC:
Tascam UH-7000 High Resolution USB Interface and Standaone Microphone Preamp with 1 Year Free Extended Warranty https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I2S53XU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_UFTFAb5010R3D

 

[dallasjustice]

Agreed, DJ, Dirac does not currently do bass crossovers or bass management. But, they have announced an intention to do that this year in a new release of the PC/Mac versions of the software.

I currently apply bass management crossovers ahead of Dirac in JRiver on my PC, which I use for playback of all sources.

Have you ever attempted to loopback with REW to verify your filters are working as predicted in DIRAC? I bet they don’t match. To get the same result as predicted by DIRAC, you’d have to do your crossovers after the DIRAC filters, not before. The crossover in Jriver are minimum phase. They shift the time domain before DIRAC applies filters. If you used an external crossover with DIRAC, you’d be able to get away with using DIRAC with crossovers.

IMO, DIRAC is totally unsuitable for for digital crossovers.

 

[amirm]

I heartily recommend either using Acourate or Audiolense with the M2 and dumping the Harman DSP.

The Harman DSP not only acts as the crossover and driver correction, it also can optimize for the room including up to four subs run independently. It also of course supports many more channels and makes sure all of them are optimized for subs. I don't know of any other solution that can do this automatically. Alas, the room optimization is dealer only so not a DIY friendly solution.

 

[dallasjustice]

The Harman DSP not only acts as the crossover and driver correction, it also can optimize for the room including up to four subs run independently. It also of course supports many more channels and makes sure all of them are optimized for subs. I don't know of any other solution that can do this automatically. Alas, the room optimization is dealer only so not a DIY friendly solution.

That’s right. I like to use multiple subs. I wouldn’t feel comfortable using the Harman solution for multipe subs for the reasons you mention. My Harman dealer would get tired of the phone calls.

From that standpoint, it made more sense for me to step outside the Harman SDEC and use other software/hardware. I’m pretty happy with the result.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Have you ever attempted to loopback with REW to verify your filters are working as predicted in DIRAC? I bet they don’t match. To get the same result as predicted by DIRAC, you’d have to do your crossovers after the DIRAC filters, not before. The crossover in Jriver are minimum phase. They shift the time domain before DIRAC applies filters. If you used an external crossover with DIRAC, you’d be able to get away with using DIRAC with crossovers.

IMO, DIRAC is totally unsuitable for for digital crossovers.

I think you are entirely correct about the mismatch between Dirac and REW measurements for the simple reason that one is single point and the other a multipoint average. Which one is "right"?

I really do not know at this point what Dirac has planned or if I will ever use it for my sub. My current solution works fine.

Not to Pandoraize it here, but time domain with speakers has some notable detractors, such as Toole. It also has notable supporters. Again, which is "right"?