New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[NoTBaTMaN]

While I was able to download the mdat (scanned fine), upload site tried to redirect me to grab another *.exe file so... pretty sketchy so I would avoid that file host site.

Alright I try to find a a different site

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

View attachment 106093

Less important, the positioning of your monitors/mic seems a bit off... but the phase seems okay if I time offset each channel before averaging.
View attachment 106094

*Sub SPL is hardly there... as it's fighting with the room.

Thanks for your analysis! I was not satisfied with what I head too and tried different setups the whole day, after being close to giving up and deciding on sending the KH750DSP back, the last thing I tried sounds much better after alignment:
I moved the KH750 DSP closer to the right wall, below my basstraps, and switched one 100cm height basstrap for a 50cm one so I don't hit the ceiling. No idea why I didn't do that earlier.
I also put the KH310A back on my desk stands and angled them at ca. 40-45°, so that their acoustic axis pointing directly at my ears, which to me sounds much, much better, even if +/-30° is generally recommended. I just like to be engulfed by the sound and afaik the ears are the most sensitive at 45°.
What made you think the monitor/microphone positioning was off in the previous measurements? Not the same distance from mic to left and right speaker?
I will post measurements for this current setup soon, hopefully tomorrow (and on a more trustworthy website I promise )

 

[ernestcarl]

The automated correction cannot really move your sub(s) and monitors for you to get optimal results. So I'd just measure the sub by itself at different locations until you find the best position with the least amount SPL suckout.

*You might wanna check that the volume gain for the sub is appropriate (matched to speakers) as well.

What made you think the monitor/microphone positioning was off in the previous measurements? Not the same distance from mic to left and right speaker?

Using swept L+R measurements is tricky as precise placement is necessary. But that's not a big issue. One could just vector average the (IR time shifted via estimate) left and right measurements.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

The automated correction cannot really move your sub(s) and monitors for you to get optimal results. So I'd just measure the sub by itself at different locations until you find the best position with the least amount SPL suckout.

*You might wanna check that the volume gain for the sub is appropriate (matched to speakers) as well.



View attachment 106138

View attachment 106139

Using swept L+R measurements is tricky as precise placement is necessary. But that's not a big issue. One could just vector average the (IR time shifted via estimate) left and right measurements.

*sigh* my new measurments don't show an improvement at all.
It's especially strange that no improvement showed even though I placed the subwoofer at 1/4 room width directly on the wall which is recommended by Neumann. I even tried removing all my front bass traps (which didn't do anything regarding the bass issue LOL).

The sub gain is adjusted automatically afaik (the controls on the back don't do anything when in network mode).
Regarding the time difference: I was wondering about the weird impulse response, thanks
II think I might have accidentally bumped into the microphone, I always place the mic with less than 1cm difference.

I might have a different problem though:
Can you spot the Neumann MA-1 and the Beyerdynamic MM-1 mics?
Same room and some measurments under the exact same conditions...

My measurements:

https://gofile.io/d/QZRbow
(comparison of hofa basotect absorbers (10cm) on desk (_abs) vs no absorbers on desk(_tisch) beyerdynamic mm-1 measurment microphone (uncalibrated))

https://gofile.io/d/x45Nux
The aligned setup from yesterday which I thought sounded good, one measurement sub only, comparison of basstraps at front corners vs no basstraps there
Also measurements for two different distances with the KH310A really close to the wall (less than 20cm/8inches).
IMO the MA-1 is not recording the bass properly.

 

[ernestcarl]

IMO the MA-1 is not recording the bass properly.

I don't think the microphone, sub, or MA-1 is the primary issue. Rather the big problem is the room (assuming you've checked all viable sub positions), unfortunately.



If you plan on keeping this or any other sub, you might be better off applying a low-cut early at ~30Hz or so. I mean, there is an appreciable improvement with the sub... but maybe not enough in this case of yours? If it sounds better with the sub, then it could be worth-it after all. If assuming all other available sub positions show similarly huge nulls around the same areas, then multiple subs as an alternative may be off little benefit here.

 

[ernestcarl]

Can you spot the Neumann MA-1 and the Beyerdynamic MM-1 mics?

Weird that the difference is so obvious, but for the sub-mains alignment procedure, not really important.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

I don't think the microphone, sub, or MA-1 is the primary issue. Rather the big problem is the room (assuming you've checked all viable sub positions), unfortunately.

View attachment 106270

If you plan on keeping this or any other sub, you might be better off applying a low-cut early at ~30Hz or so. I mean, there is an appreciable improvement with the sub... but maybe not enough in this case of yours? If it sounds better with the sub, then it could be worth-it after all. If assuming all other available sub positions show similarly huge nulls around the same areas, then multiple subs as an alternative may be off little benefit here.

Have you looked at the Beyerdynamic MM-1 measurements too? Before I measured with MA-1 I never had such a bass rolloff.
Even my cheap Behringer mic was not like this.
The original thought when bought the sub was to help with filling out the gap from 70Hz-130Hz (as seen on the Beyerdynamic measurements) and apply a little EQ to the room modes to help with decay time (which would have required two subs I suppose). Then I discovered the MA-1 and thought why not just try it out, especially with the phase linearization, although I*m not sure how audible that really is...

Dimensions of my room are 489x357x240 cm (similar to member DjBonoBobo iirc) and the room is treated with the equivalent of 17 Hofa bass traps natural (sheep wool) placed in the corners. https://hofa-akustik.de/en/modules/basstrap-natural/
I would have though if he is getting very good results with less treatment and a smaller room I should get good results, or at least not as bad as they seem now...

Also the question for me is, what are all viable positions? I have only tried the sub at the front wall, roughly between 1/4 and 1/3 times the room width from the right wall. I thought everything else was not recommended unless you have more than one sub.

Right now I have the KH310A as close to the front wall as possible (inbetween the basstraps) again, which results in plenty of bass (altough a bit muddy, I blame the 33 and 66 Hz room modes).
Next step for me is ordering a different measurement microphone which can be calibrated independently, I don't trust the MA-1.
Then I would start with the sub in manual mode and just try different positions again out without the alignment.
After that I will decide if I send the KH750 DSP and MA-1 back, right now I'm feeling I should.
I'd order one or two PSI AVAAs instead (my original plan before finding out about how effective subwoofers can be with helping to enable a more linear bass. )

 

[q3cpma]

Have you looked at the Beyerdynamic MM-1 measurements too? Before I measured with MA-1 I never had such a bass rolloff.
Even my cheap Behringer mic was not like this.
The original thought when bought the sub was to help with filling out the gap from 70Hz-130Hz (as seen on the Beyerdynamic measurements) and apply a little EQ to the room modes to help with decay time (which would have required two subs I suppose). Then I discovered the MA-1 and thought why not just try it out, especially with the phase linearization, although I*m not sure how audible that really is...

Dimensions of my room are 489x357x240 cm (similar to member DjBonoBobo iirc) and the room is treated with the equivalent of 17 Hofa bass traps natural (sheep wool) placed in the corners. https://hofa-akustik.de/en/modules/basstrap-natural/
I would have though if he is getting very good results with less treatment and a smaller room I thought I should get good results, or at least not as bad as they seem now...

Also the question for me is, what are all viable positions? I have only tried the sub at the front wall, roughly between 1/4 and 1/3 times the room width from the right wall. I thought everything else was not recommended unless you have more than one sub.

Right now I have the KH310A as close to the front wall as possible (inbetween the basstraps) again, which results in plenty of bass (altough a bit muddy, I blame the 33 and 66 Hz room modes).
Next step for me is ordering a different measurement microphone which can be calibrated independently, I don't trust the MA-1.
Then I would start with the sub in manual mode and just try different positions again out without the alignment.
After that I will decide if I send the KH750 DSP and MA-1 back, right now I'm feeling I should.
I'd order one or two PSI AVAAs instead (my original plan before finding out about how effective subwoofers can be with helping to enable a more linear bass. )

Did you contact Neumann about this?

 

[ernestcarl]

Have you looked at the Beyerdynamic MM-1 measurements too? Before I measured with MA-1 I never had such a bass rolloff.

I clearly did not look close enough.

 

[ernestcarl]

Next step for me is ordering a different measurement microphone which can be calibrated independently, I don't trust the MA-1.

Maybe try a replacement first if they can provide that without too much delay.

 

[ernestcarl]

I'd order one or two PSI AVAAs instead (my original plan before finding out about how effective subwoofers can be with helping to enable a more linear bass. )

LOL. That is so much more expensive... And here I am playing around with manual everything to save $$$

I don't think anyone has posted detailed measurements with/out the AVAA here yet so I'd be interested in the results too if ever you go that route.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I don't think anyone has posted detailed measurements with/out the AVAA here yet so I'd be interested in the results too if ever you go that route.

I did, actually (edit: well, as detailed as i could). Look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-408953 and for more details, pictures and history here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eq-also-passive-absorbtion.12264/#post-359277

As you can see, the AVAA did a lot around 25Hz, but didn´t help at all between 70 and 100 Hz. The KH 750 was way more effective. Since then i tweaked the positioning and the MA 1 improved everything even more as well.

Some more measurements and review of the PSI AVAA: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/psi-avaa-c20-aktiver-bass-absorber-im-test/

@NoTBaTMaN
Obviously you are getting completely different results than me with a similar situation. Do you mind posting a picture and/or a sketch of your room (Listening position and so on)?

 

[ernestcarl]

Looking back again, the other set of measurements with your beyer mic still shows room related problems:

Still looks like a very difficult obstacle course for any auto correction tool given the multiple nodes blocking the way.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

Did you contact Neumann about this?

I have just now, the email was written already but was hesitant to send it because I couldn't say for sure it's not my mistake/room problem.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

Looking back again, the other set of measurements with your beyer mic still shows room related problems:

View attachment 106298

Still looks like a very difficult obstacle course for any auto correction tool given the multiple nodes blocking the way.

No doubt about that, but keep in mind this was without the KH750 DSP, KH310A only in a somewhat bad position. The results I saw others got from subwoofers, especially multiple ones, was that they can even out the frequency response, that's why I bought the KH750.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

Maybe try a replacement first if they can provide that without too much delay.

I asked Neumann about my issue and if they can generally provide calibration files for the MA-1, we'll see

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

I did, actually (edit: well, as detailed as i could). Look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.13540/page-3#post-408953 and for more details, pictures and history here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eq-also-passive-absorbtion.12264/#post-359277

As you can see, the AVAA did a lot around 25Hz, but didn´t help at all between 70 and 100 Hz. The KH 750 was way more effective. Since then i tweaked the positioning and the MA 1 improved everything even more as well.

Some more measurements and review of the PSI AVAA: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/psi-avaa-c20-aktiver-bass-absorber-im-test/

@NoTBaTMaN
Obviously you are getting completely different results than me with a similar situation. Do you mind posting a picture and/or a sketch of your room (Listening position and so on)?

Yeah sure See attached files. The pictures show the current situation right now, the 3D sktech is from the company where I ordered the acoustic treatment, they positioned the speakers differently and it also shows more treatment which I have yet to order. My head is about 1,85m distance from the front wall.

 

[richard12511]

I even tried removing all my front bass traps (which didn't do anything regarding the bass issue LOL).

Typical bass traps don't affect the bass, so your results are normal, there. They're more effective for midbass and lower midrange.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

Typical bass traps don't affect the bass, so your results are normal, there. They're more effective for midbass and lower midrange.

Yeah I view them as broadband absorbers, they definitely improve the sound, also they were effective reducing the decay times of the mode at ca. 60 Hz, also the 34 Hz mode got better, just not by so much (vs. no bass traps at all, not shown in what I uploaded) I didn't remove all basstraps, only those which were on the front/monitor wall for the measurement I uploaded. But with my sketchy mic I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on these measurements anyway.

 

[richard12511]

Yeah I view them as broadband absorbers, they definitely improve the sound, also they were effective reducing the decay times of the mode at ca. 60 Hz, also the 34 Hz mode got better, just not by so much (vs. no bass traps at all, not shown in what I uploaded) I didn't remove all basstraps, only those which were on the front/monitor wall for the measurement I uploaded. But with my sketchy mic I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on these measurements anyway.

Actually, I commented before seeing your photos. Those traps look thicker than what I meant by "typical bass traps", and they probably remain effective a little lower.