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Measurement and Review of Schiit BiFrost Multibit DAC

Jimster480

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Yeh Yeh, that's the ticket.
Amir's bad measurements are invalid cause the unit wasn't warmed up enough.
OH WAIT, and it didn't have the required 1000 hours of breakin.
And I think the source connecting cables were not up to the MultiBits high requirements.
Buzz, Failing grade for Amir. :( :rolleyes:
Ah yes 3 years warm up time in a tesseract field is the only way to get the best sound.
 

RayDunzl

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I agree Ray, but the paradox is that people pay a premium for these R2R dacs for noise performance.

My old analog preamp...

upload_2018-2-6_14-51-43.png


So, a resistor ladder for volume control.

Being ign'int of what a 16bit Multiplying DAC is (or does, particularly in the context of an analog preamp) I had to look at an example:

http://www.linear.com/product/LTC1595

Hmmm...

https://training.ti.com/engineer-it-what-multiplying-dac-mdac
 
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amirm

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My old analog preamp...

index.php


So, a resistor ladder for volume control.
It is not the same problem Ray. With a volume control you set the level, the ladder switches do their thing and everything stays the same from then on.

In DAC, the ladder switches are constantly changing as PCM values change. After every new PCM value, the switches change stage and during that time, they are out of sync with each other and generate erroneous results. This is why this DAC is not positioned for audio. To be used for audio it needs to be followed by de-glitching hardware which it lacks.

I will write more on this later.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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Thank you. I am listening to it right now. Went to download a benchmark program and when I opened the zip file, playback stopped for a second or two. After that I can't duplicate it. I say this is within degree of performance of Windows/Roon though so I can't point the finger at a problem here.

What playback software do you use?
You do realize that really has nothing to do with a DAC. It is usually insufficient buffer set in the driver.
 
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amirm

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You do realize that really has nothing to do with a DAC. It is usually insufficient buffer set in the driver.
No I don't realize that because it is not true. The async interface in the DAC is also buffering and importantly is in charge of requesting more data.

And the driver here is the class driver from Microsoft used with all DACs I test. So that condition is the same. As a result if one DAC underruns and another doesn't, it points to internal buffer/logic in the DAC.
 

Jimster480

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You do realize that really has nothing to do with a DAC. It is usually insufficient buffer set in the driver.
Its not true, because these problems are not existent in other DAC's.
And even something like the FiiO K1 which uses a generic windows driver the same as say a Fulla2 and yet the Fulla2 has the problem but the K1 doesn't.
I also tested this across multiple OS's and I could reproduce the problem on different PC's and different OS's.
The problem is in their USB implementation somewhere.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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No I don't realize that because it is not true. The async interface in the DAC is also buffering and importantly is in charge of requesting more data.

And the driver here is the class driver from Microsoft used with all DACs I test. So that condition is the same. As a result if one DAC underruns and another doesn't, it points to internal buffer/logic in the DAC.
So you feel that difference denotes a bad DAC. I hope I can respectfully disagree. IMO it is like saying if a car needs higher octane gas to stop pre-ignition , the car is defective.
 

Jimster480

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There are people who write logs about how the Schiit Yggdrasil changes in sound over days, weeks and months. Always getting better of course. Even if there is some degree of change when measured after warming up it's not going to be much.
There are plenty of people talking about the depth of performance with products that don't have any performance.
There are people listening to crappy TDA1547 DAC's and saying they are "the best" when the sound is literally horrible 1980s stereo quality.

If you really want to be seen as the honest broker you portray, and are truly interested in learning. Let the DACs burn in, you stated you also have the higher end Yaggi DAC in house. Listen through a good SPDIF source with your best transducer, you say you have Stax correct? Use the discerning ear and your knowledge of live music that you have also mentioned, and please report your results. You, (like most) are accustom to the sound of delta sigma dacs, they do not sound at all natural, just give it a honest try.
Electrical components don't have burn in that exists in this manner. Any "burn in" is done in the first minutes of the device running.
As capacitors and other components get old they sometimes drift out of spec which can change their performance (and sound) in time. That is about where it ends. The rest of this "warm up" nonsense is just myth created by people who remember the days of Vacuum tubes and needing to hit the correct temperatures to deliver their performance specs. Modern day semiconductors have out-of-box performance that those old components couldn't ever match on their best days, and they are tolerant to voltages, heat, interference, etc.

People like you are the ones who allow companies like Schiit to continue scamming honest people out of their money. I listened to the Mimby in the middle of last year after I fell for their marketing aswell. It sounded like utter trash and contained plenty of artifacts in many of my classical tracks. Also the constant pops/clicks in my quiet tracks really ticked me off. I tried to like it, I tried to believe in the marketing.... but it was just marketing rubbish and in the end I could tell a clear difference between the Mimby and my D30 or M8. Even my wife could when we got into complex violin tracks (she plays violin) and she could tell where there were artifacts or where the tones weren't being played clearly. This was even before I had mrspeakers Aeon or Denon AH-MM400 or Oppo PM-2!


So you feel that difference denotes a bad DAC. I hope I can respectfully disagree. IMO it is like saying if a car needs higher octane gas to stop pre-ignition , the car is defective.
You don't understand how computers work man. The driver is the same as @amirm has said. Therefore its not Schiit's driver or Windows driver which is defective if other DAC's using the same driver are not experiencing the same problems. This is a flaw in their design which causes these problems, if it was driver related all devices using the same driver would malfunction in the same way.
Don't compare drivers to gasoline and pre-ignition, because the two aren't the same at all. Gasoline octane could be only compared to voltage / amperage for power input as this is the "fuel" that the DAC uses.

Schiit knows this is a problem and this is why they sell their own magic fix boxes which will always perform better because they know of the flaw and they fix it in a second box that they sell you after you have already gotten used to listening to one of their DAC's.

I was actually blocked from posting on head-fi after I found the SMSL X-USB because it does the same thing as their Eitr box but it costs only $55 and uses the newest XMOS. Administrators started threatening me and telling me that I was making "false claims" and that because I "don't have a eitr" I can't "claim it does the same thing". Even though they are literally both products described to do the same thing.

Understand that this is a large scale scam and these guys are all profiting heavily from deceiving everyone. Bad or objective talk about Schiit products results in post curation on most audio forums.
Multiple post deletes/edits results in threats from admins/mods. ( I can actually prove all of this as I have downloads and screenshots of every bit of discourse with the administrators of Head-Fi as I believed they would ban my account or edit the PM's when this type of stuff was brought to light).

I considered starting a forum like this before but the reality is that I really don't have the time to run yet another online community and I don't have the time to do measurements on all this audio equipment on a regular basis (atleast at this point in time). So I'm glad this forum was started because a board like this needs to exist to benchmark audio products as they are advertised vs believe in marketing babble.
 
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RayDunzl

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You do realize that really has nothing to do with a DAC. It is usually insufficient buffer set in the driver.

Mine mutes as it detects an error in the incoming data.

upload_2018-2-6_16-43-8.png


I've never heard it make a "noise" that I can remember.

So you feel that difference denotes a bad DAC. I hope I can respectfully disagree. IMO it is like saying if a car needs higher octane gas to stop pre-ignition , the car is defective.

My car needs higher octane fuel to stop pre-ignition.

It also has a knock sensor that tells the ECU to make an adjustment to the ignition timing when knock is detected.

I generally don't run premium so it probably comes into play on occasion.
 

Jinjuku

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Jason Stoddard has responded to Amir's measurements. I don't think he understands:

1. What Amir posted
2. That Amir has replicated some of AtomicBobs measurements
3. That AtomicBob apparently has no issues with items like channel imbalance.
 
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amirm

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Jason Stoddard has responded to Amir's measurements. I don't think he understands:

1. What Amir posted
2. That Amir has replicated some of AtomicBobs measurements
3. That AtomicBob apparently has no issues with items like channel imbalance.
FYI they banned me from replying in the thread after my first reply. :(
 

Jimster480

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Jason Stoddard has responded to Amir's measurements. I don't think he understands:

1. What Amir posted
2. That Amir has replicated some of AtomicBobs measurements
3. That AtomicBob apparently has no issues with items like channel imbalance.
Where did he post this? Jason is such a cocky idiot who has been on my schiitlist for quite some time now.


FYI they banned me from the thread after my first reply. :(
Is this on communist-fi?
 

Jimster480

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mindbomb

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It is not the same problem Ray. With a volume control you set the level, the ladder switches do their thing and everything stays the same from then on.

In DAC, the ladder switches are constantly changing as PCM values change. After every new PCM value, the switches change stage and during that time, they are out of sync with each other and generate erroneous results. This is why this DAC is not positioned for audio. To be used for audio it needs to be followed by de-glitching hardware which it lacks.

I will write more on this later.

This dac has multiple dac chips iirc, might be interleaving to prevent glitches at output. There is this thread at the analog devices forum where someone explains his thought process in making a dac similar to these schiit multibit dacs.
https://ez.analog.com/thread/83825
 

Blumlein 88

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Could u post in the sound science forum? They allow measuring there I think. On head fi.
 
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