Abyss Diana V2 Review (headphone)

[imagidominc]

Seeing some of the same defensive comments every time Amir gives a negative review to a luxury headphone, so I’ll say it again:

Nobody is stopping you from buying this headphone and being happy with it. I’m sure that those that have heard it felt the voice of God touch their soul and they cried because they finally reached their musical nirvana. I nor anyone here can take away your subjective experience from you. This headphone I’m sure sounds amazing. I don’t need to hear it to give my opinion on the measurements we see here. I own equipment that doesn’t measure well either, and I still love it. But im not going to ignore its flaws.

The only thing I was pointing out earlier is that companies like Abyss use shady business tactics and fluffy language to lure unsuspecting people into buying their overpriced gear. The fact that they try to dismiss what Amir did here says a lot.

 

[amirm]

I have watched a few of their other videos. It is funny at times where all three of them take different positions and then try to nod as if they agree.

Anyway, they are saying some of things I am saying that you can get whatever measurements out of a test rig. And that it is very difficult to compare one set of measurements with others. But that as comparative tool it can work which is what I am doing.

What they are missing is that they did not try to correlate measurements with listening. They simply gave up. This happens if you just stare at the moving target of measurements and your ears. They are missing a link in between which is equalization. Harman has shown that you can do a lot in equalizing a headphone to sound similar to another. It is a powerful tool to test the hypothesis of audibility of frequency response errors. It is something that I discovered that finally unlocked the puzzle here. They sadly have not even though the concept is quite simple.

I suspect their measurement gear is sitting some place collecting dust. If they produce measurements and there are specs of dust on their graphs, then you know I am right!

 

[mshenay]

I do not actually. As I make the tiniest adjustment on my measurement rig, there are profound differences in measurements. There is no such thing is even perceived or we would go nuts as we moved our head around and tonality changed. I have the Aeon Flow Closed headphones as I type this and I just rotated their cups good 20 degrees forward and back with zero perceived change. Yes, the bass gets reduced if I pull them away from my ear but pushing on them gently and letting go makes no difference.

I think some serious research is needed on why our perception is not tracking measurements like this. It could be partially adaptation where we filter out variations.

Funny enough what your describing is how I and a few others experienced the original AKG K550, the seal was so finicky IF you moved your head around you'd lose the low end entirely... it was terrible and a real shame given how nice the headphone sounded IF you could keep your head still and the seal... consistent

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/disappointed-with-the-akg-k550-–-where-is-the-bass.624031/

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/4rzwbq
Seriously give those a read for a more modern and well documented example of how obvious not having a proper fit can be on some headphones.

I should have specified the "fit" changes mostly with lower frequencies, again as a kid I'd wonder why my buddies headphone had more like thump than mine. Same headphone of course and often times his just fit different so I'd fiddle with his till the lows sounded "normal again"

I do not actually. As I make the tiniest adjustment on my measurement rig, there are profound differences in measurements. There is no such thing is even perceived or we would go nuts as we moved our head around and tonality changed. I have the Aeon Flow Closed headphones as I type this and I just rotated their cups good 20 degrees forward and back with zero perceived change. Yes, the bass gets reduced if I pull them away from my ear but pushing on them gently and letting go makes no difference.

I think some serious research is needed on why our perception is not tracking measurements like this. It could be partially adaptation where we filter out variations.

I wasn't speaking about the Aeon Series... but the Ether CX or do you not own those any more? Still I just changed the pads on mine as I started to notice it's tonality was a little... off from what I was used to an sure enough the old worn out pads were different

So I can't speak to why your not perceiving any changes or why some of us do and some of us do not? Anyways I think in this case with so many differing opinions it might be worth disclosing how the various "fits" change the frequency response

Heck people looking to purchase this or any headphone would benefit from seeing the variance that can occur from different fits as the sad truth is no single headphone will fit every one exactly the same way!

 

[amirm]

I find this really interesting. I think seeing this information in reviews, or figuring out a way to show the "average of placements" would be super cool.

I did that in the B&K thread. It is just busy work. So there are variations. Then what? What is the right and most common measurement? We don't know. Mathematic averaging just hides details in the measurements and smears the data. Geometric mean which is what I used is better but it still doesn't give us predictive measurements. It is best to just know that things vary and move on.

 

[mshenay]

I find this really interesting. I think seeing this information in reviews, or figuring out a way to show the "average of placements" would be super cool.

Obviously there are limitations as to how much we can interpret and use this information, but it would be cool to see your other placement attempts regardless.

A metric I've seen and appreciate often is a measurement reflecting fit with a variety of glasses mostly "thick" and "thin" frames, so an exploration into what effect breaking the seal or fit has featuring something many people commonly wear while using headphones

 

[amirm]

So I can't speak to why your not perceiving any changes or why some of us do and some of us do not?

Do you use a jig every time you put the headphone on? I assume you are not. If so, then every time you do that the frequency response, leakage, etc. is changing. Fortunately your brain's central cortex ignores small, but consistent changes like this and focuses on the music instead. It does this all the time as you move around in your home yet still hear your loved ones sounding different. This, despite the reflections and tonality of their voices changing a ton. We call this adaptation.

 

[KTN46]

I did that in the B&K thread. It is just busy work. So there are variations. Then what? What is the right and most common measurement? We don't know. Mathematic averaging just hides details in the measurements and smears the data. Geometric mean which is what I used is better but it still doesn't give us predictive measurements. It is best to just know that things vary and move on.

Yeah I understand asking you for extra work and documentation is a lot, given that you are doing this for free. I just thought that it would be interesting to look at.

 

[mshenay]

Do you use a jig every time you put the headphone on? I assume you are not. If so, then every time you do that the frequency response, leakage, etc. is changing. Fortunately your brain's central cortex ignores small, but consistent changes like this and focuses on the music instead. It does this all the time as you move around in your home yet still hear your loved ones sounding different. This, despite the reflections and tonality of their voices changing a ton. We call this adaptation.

I mentioned specifically low frequencies... which is where your measurements for this headphone seem to deviate the most from other data points and where I and others I know tend to be more sensitive to audible changes

Here's a post from 2017 with yet another headphone where I found my self wondering why I had no low frequencies [it was because the fit was off]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ath-w1000x-thread.485226/post-13410490

An no jig but I take a moment to make sure things are fit properly. If there's a break in the seal it feels weird or at least it does again'st my head... it's not always as obvious with dynamics but it's QUITE noticeable with planar magnetic headphones... tho even my HD 800 feels odd if the fit is off

An what? The loved ones in my home sound quite different when they're in a different part of the house relative to my self in the office... in fact it's painstakingly obvious where in the house they are based on how their voices sound... Is that not the same case for your self?

Yes I'll admit the difference in how they sound doesn't always degrade my ability to understand them.

 

[mshenay]

Spoiler: Diana Phi with DMS Pads [Not the Diana V2]

Again disregarding what is or isn't heard aside, we've seen two data points that don't show the headphone exhibiting the same peak and sharp dip that yours did...

I think in this case it might be worthwhile to shed some light on how your performed this measurement to get such vastly different results? I mean heck even looking at the above there are a few raw pulls that have that weird 50 hrz hump and sharp roll off but there are others in that don't and it appears they've averaged them and even averaged... why does your data only have that odd hump

Where you able to get a pull without that weird hump if so what does the rest of the response look like

 

[amirm]

I mentioned specifically low frequencies... which is where your measurements for this headphone seem to deviate the most from other data points and where I and others I know tend to be more sensitive to audible changes

What other data points? I searched before doing the review and only found one DIY style measurement. Measurements posted in this graph were for other headphones. I see one posted today but there is no link to the original source so I have no idea how it was done.

 

[amirm]

Heck here's another data point where we don't see that massive odd mid bass peak

That's another headphone. And what "massive mid-peak?" There is a slight peaking which I ignored in EQ:

The peaking actually helps it track the target more, not less. Here is my EQ:

Why did I ignore that peak? Because I knew it varied in different measurements. And because I tried an EQ there and it was a flip of a coin whether it was better or not so I left it out.

You guys continue to focus on the measurements and comparing to others. It is a pitfall and will get you nowhere but confused.

 

[mshenay]

Ahh yes that's the Diana Phi with DMS Pads not the V2, my apologies

Wait are you taking headphones measurements with EQ? Surely not, I assume your adding in EQ after taking a raw measurement

Also where you able to get a pull without that weird hump midbass hump around 70 hrz if so what does the rest of the response look like

You guys continue to focus on the measurements and comparing to others.

An is this not a community where the focus is on measurements that we trust to be taken and generated with a high degree of accuracy

Still this data just feels incomplete... I mean enjoyed reading here for the data! For the measurements!!! The speaker response graphs are amazing, and there's just a TON of data in them. Both Raw, compensated and averaged, why isn't the headphone data just as comprehensive?

 

[amirm]

An is this not a community where the focus is on measurements that we trust to be taken and generated with a high degree of accuracy

First no. We are not a measurement community even though people have stereotyped us as such. We care about audio science and engineering. We care about how things work. Here, understanding what the measurements tell us and don't is important due to the physics of measurements and nature of devices under test. The data is neither useless nor absolute. It is somewhere in between and you have to learn to extract useful information from it.

Wait are you taking headphones measurements with EQ? Surely not, I assume your adding in EQ after taking a raw measurement

What? Of course not. I am using EQ to see if varying any specific aspect of frequency response is a) real (audible) and b) is a problem or not. This is the verification of the measurements. It is the feedback loop to check on validity of conclusions drawn from measurements. I do this with speakers as well even though measurements there tell more of the story than headphones do.

 

[amirm]

Also where you able to get a pull without that weird hump midbass hump around 70 hrz if so what does the rest of the response look like

I didn't save them.

this data just feels incomplete... I mean enjoyed reading here for the data! The speaker response graphs are amazing, and there's just a TON of data in them. Both Raw, compensated and averaged, why isn't the headphone data just as comprehensive?

Do you use voice recognition on your phone? It works most of the time, doesn't it? As "incomplete" as that may be in understanding you, it is quite useful and powerful advance in computing. Same here. If you are waiting for 100%, then I don't have the answer for you.

 

[Degru]

We are not a measurement community

If you say so.

We care about how things work. Here, understanding what the measurements tell us and don't is important due to the physics of measurements and nature of devices under test.

Isn't that what this entire argument has been about?

I didn't save them.

Several people have made compelling arguments with data to back them up, so it is disappointing that you are unable to do the same.

 

[the_brunx]

so does Abyss approve the youtuber DMS (who works for Abyss in Marketing) as competent enough to dare measure their headphones?, and can he measure the difference with the cables as well since he has access. you know, the thousand of dollars USB, Power, RCA and headphone cables etc and their abyss claims. which he helps to sell.

 

[Blujackaal]

Another one bites the dust. It seems, just as with source electronics, the price of headphones is not correlated with sound quality. The recent hyper-inflation of “flagship” headphone prices is starting to look like just another scam perpetrated on audiophiles by the industry.

Thanks for the review!

It already a scam, 5 planar/estats all have worse THD than a grado & can't reproduce 4KHz without bottoming out. The HD6XX/ER2XR sound better for under $300.

The IEM market worse with DIY start up companies just selling rehelled CIEM's with the same 5 drivers that westone & JH Audio use?.

 

[GoldenOne]

so does Abyss approve the youtuber DMS (who works for Abyss in Marketing) as competent enough to dare measure their headphones?, and can he measure the difference with the cables as well since he has access. you know, the thousand of dollars USB, Power, RCA and headphone cables etc and their abyss claims. which he helps to sell.

You are the only one bringing up the cable thing.
I agree, the expensive cables are a joke, and that is something worth delving into a bit, but its completely besides the point.

No one benefits from conversation being derailed, many headphone manufacturers sell overpriced cables to varying degrees, but it doesn't mean we automatically have to assume their headphones are complete and utter rubbish. They are two different products, judge the two different products separately.

I enjoy Hifiman's headphones, but their cables are laughably bad and insanely priced on their higher end offerings. One product being bad or snakeoily does not correlate to their other stuff being the same.

The point here is that there is a likely significant flaw in testing. Amir has said he doesn't feel its an issue and that we are here for the science and physics related to headphone performance, which is exactly what I want.
Even if Amir feels it makes 0 subjective difference, or sounds subjectively worse, measuring with a proper seal seems to me the bare minimum to judge a headphone.


I would really like to not have to rely on measurements given my the manufacturer themselves, as many manufacturer claims can be.....optimistic...
But when the only third party measurements available show a fault then there isn't much of a choice.

As others have said, a photo of how the headphones are placed, or simply re-measuring with a seal, or even measuring something else with a broken seal to simulate the pad issue on the diana, would put all this to rest. Not doing so goes entirely against the scientific method, we aren't actually getting complete information anymore, we're making assumptions.
I don't like making assumptions and nor should you or anyone here. We should make decisions based on complete and thorough evidence. And when two sources of evidence are contradictory, we shouldn't turn it into a sports match. Its not about "taking sides", its about getting more information.

Clearly the two stories told by the two sets of measurements are VERY different, and i'd like to know which of those two I would be experiencing if I were to buy/wear them.

Right now I'm more inclined to believe abyss given the flatplate/pad issue. But I would MUCH prefer if there were a more realistic set of measurements from a third party I could use instead.
And whilst amir says that to him subjectively there is no subbass, respectfully i'm not on this forum for subjective impressions, i'm here for information.

 

[maverickronin]

Here is another example of what is wrong there with noise. See that spike at 200 Hz? Here is another random example from Tyll:

All those 200Hz and 2kHz spike are caused by range switching on his older model AP.

 

[the_brunx]

You are the only one bringing up the cable thing.
I agree, the expensive cables are a joke, and that is something worth delving into a bit, but its completely besides the point.

No one benefits from conversation being derailed, many headphone manufacturers sell overpriced cables to varying degrees, but it doesn't mean we automatically have to assume their headphones are complete and utter rubbish. They are two different products, judge the two different products separately.

I enjoy Hifiman's headphones, but their cables are laughably bad and insanely priced on their higher end offerings. One product being bad or snakeoily does not correlate to their other stuff being the same.

The point here is that there is a likely significant flaw in testing. Amir has said he doesn't feel its an issue and that we are here for the science and physics related to headphone performance, which is exactly what I want.
Even if Amir feels it makes 0 subjective difference, or sounds subjectively worse, measuring with a proper seal seems to me the bare minimum to judge a headphone.


I would really like to not have to rely on measurements given my the manufacturer themselves, as many manufacturer claims can be.....optimistic...
But when the only third party measurements available show a fault then there isn't much of a choice.

As others have said, a photo of how the headphones are placed, or simply re-measuring with a seal, or even measuring something else with a broken seal to simulate the pad issue on the diana, would put all this to rest. Not doing so goes entirely against the scientific method, we aren't actually getting complete information anymore, we're making assumptions.
I don't like making assumptions and nor should you or anyone here. We should make decisions based on complete and thorough evidence. And when two sources of evidence are contradictory, we shouldn't turn it into a sports match. Its not about "taking sides", its about getting more information.

Clearly the two stories told by the two sets of measurements are VERY different, and i'd like to know which of those two I would be experiencing if I were to buy/wear them.

Right now I'm more inclined to believe abyss given the flatplate/pad issue. But I would MUCH prefer if there were a more realistic set of measurements from a third party I could use instead.
And whilst amir says that to him subjectively there is no subbass, respectfully i'm not on this forum for subjective impressions, i'm here for information.

Such a long story. I just wanted an explanation why Abyss disrespectfully and totally unprofessionally dismisses Amirm and all his undeniable knowledge, But DMS not? You don't see the irony?

For me those words from Abyss are not only an Insult to Amirm but to everyone I know who share headphone measurements online.
and a suppression tactic.