I am reading your comments, but I don't think it would be appropriate to reply on this thread.
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New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment
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Pearljam5000
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You're always welcome, we're all Genelec fans hereI am reading your comments, but I don't think it would be appropriate to reply on this thread.
Lemarchand
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You're always welcome, we're all Genelec fans here
I do not know if we are all Genelec fans here but if it is the same Ilkka that was doing those subwoofer tests ages ago he has my deepest respect.
Guilty as charged, I used to do some subwoofer measurements.
Just a quick update: I did a few more tests, but will experiment with other subwoofer positions. My impression is that I'm getting very different results through the app than before, and therefore other positions may work better. I noticed that there are significant changes not only in frequency response, but also in Group Delay, for example. I can't evaluate these results well myself - I'm not competent enough for that, so it would be interesting if someone reviewed this procedure "properly". In any case, I can say that the auto alignment does a lot more than I could by using my manual filters and trying out delays.
I contacted Neumann with some questions and got answers. They say that the alignment takes into account many factors and is not only intended to make the frequency response look as "nice" as possible. As I said, someone with more knowledge than I would have to take a look at this. I myself will continue to pay attention to the frequency response in the tests, but also more test listening than usual to get a better impression.
By the way, at the moment you can't use the neumann.control app and the Auto Alignment app together, only one of the two. But the Auto Alignment App is supposed to be developed further and hopefully will have a save function on the PC at some point.
With the 7 measurements, which are quite similar to Dirac (but with precise distances, e.g. "move microphone 36 cm to the left"), the first measurement in particular is very important - here the microphone must be aligned very precisely. For the other measurements, similar to Dirac, you can also vary a bit, for example choose larger distances.
I contacted Neumann with some questions and got answers. They say that the alignment takes into account many factors and is not only intended to make the frequency response look as "nice" as possible. As I said, someone with more knowledge than I would have to take a look at this. I myself will continue to pay attention to the frequency response in the tests, but also more test listening than usual to get a better impression.
By the way, at the moment you can't use the neumann.control app and the Auto Alignment app together, only one of the two. But the Auto Alignment App is supposed to be developed further and hopefully will have a save function on the PC at some point.
With the 7 measurements, which are quite similar to Dirac (but with precise distances, e.g. "move microphone 36 cm to the left"), the first measurement in particular is very important - here the microphone must be aligned very precisely. For the other measurements, similar to Dirac, you can also vary a bit, for example choose larger distances.
In a real room, REW needs a lot of tweaking to get even close to answering a fundamental one-dimension question: Perceived frequency response. GLM 4 uses a priori information about monitors and listening distance(s) together with the measured in-room response(s) to set a host of parameters. Mic calibration is also just a prerequisite.
just bought a second hand pair of 310 ... considering to add the 750 and ive just found out about the ma1... did i get it right ? you need also an external router to connect everything together ? keen to know what you guys think of the neumann calibration system and how it compares to sonarworks. thx
Follow up: I experimented with different postions. I found a better sub position and put the mains a bit farther away and apart (1.70 m). This is what i am getting now with KH310, KH750 and MA-1 - i have to listen to it, but i am very happy at the moment.
Green: Estimated in room response KH310 only for reference, measured by Amir.
Red: The best i could achive by manually optimizing over the last months. Average of MMM-measurements (L + sub) + (R + Sub) with room EQ and settings described here.
Grey: First try with same positions as red line (blue line in my quoted post) -
Black: Last try with better positions - Average of MMM-measurements (L + sub) + (R + Sub) after Auto Alignment with the MA 1 (for this REW measurement i used the UMIK for comparability)
L+R single sweep at LP (green: R, red: L)
R only, Group Delay
R only, spectrogramm
Mesh
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Oh wow - that newest MA 1 is looking excellent. Did you move the sub to one of the sides or backwards/forward? Any chance of an R separate, L separate and Sub separate REW (rather than R + sub and L + sub) in your new position? Ideally, one without MA 1 and one with MA 1.
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The sub is now between R and L, but at 33% of room width (before it was at 25%). Maybe i do separate measurements another time, but for this weekend i used up every bit of tolerance of my housemates. I don´t know how to do it yet, though, because i can´t use the ipad app anymore. I think i have to change cable connection for different measurements....
Mesh
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Thanks - sub closer to the R I suspect then? To help that right speaker at 85 Hz, I mean.
Don't sweat it. I am starting to suspect your 2nd graph is without MA 1 as the lowest bass looks different than your 1st graph. If so, that says plenty about what MA 1 could compensate for.
Yes, sub closer to R. It was closer to L before. The second graph is with MA 1, but it is a single sweep measurement. First graph is MMM measurement.
I made some before/after measurements again, but this time the MA 1-correction vs. local mode (no EQ).
Single sweep measurements at LP, 1.60 meters distance.
KH310 without KH750 and without EQ vs. KH310+750+MA 1 (Average of L+R)
Averages
Sub only; local mode (no EQ) vs network mode (EQ set by MA 1):
EDIT: Additionally, comparison of L+R (local vs. network)
I tried to attach an mdat-file of the 8 measurement (L+R local, L+sub + R+sub network, L+sub + R+sub local, sub local, sub network) if someone is interested in comparison of phase, GD and so on. But i don´t know how to do that - the filesize is always too large, even a single measurement.
If someone knows how to share it, you can download it here, but it´s limited to 5 downloads only: https://www.file2send.eu/de/downloa...ztNePw48hga7icEni2cQyMChOKwT0NgTuAZuXNaTigySY
Single sweep measurements at LP, 1.60 meters distance.
KH310 without KH750 and without EQ vs. KH310+750+MA 1 (Average of L+R)
Averages
Sub only; local mode (no EQ) vs network mode (EQ set by MA 1):
EDIT: Additionally, comparison of L+R (local vs. network)
I tried to attach an mdat-file of the 8 measurement (L+R local, L+sub + R+sub network, L+sub + R+sub local, sub local, sub network) if someone is interested in comparison of phase, GD and so on. But i don´t know how to do that - the filesize is always too large, even a single measurement.
If someone knows how to share it, you can download it here, but it´s limited to 5 downloads only: https://www.file2send.eu/de/downloa...ztNePw48hga7icEni2cQyMChOKwT0NgTuAZuXNaTigySY
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Did you measure those with the MA-1 mic? If no, I would be very interested if you could do that for one measurment.
I added a KH750 + MA-1 to my KH310A (so same setup and similar room, 4.89x3.57x2.40 m ) on friday, and while it seems to fill up the typical dip from 70-130Hz, I now have a very steep/high-order bass roll-off/lowcut from 60-70Hz when measuring with REW? Don‘t get me wrong, the sound is a lot better with the MA-1 auto alignment, I still think I should not lose all bass below 65Hz - especially with the addition of the sub.
Maybe this is due to subwoofer placement (below my studio desk directly under the right KH310A on the desk, close to my basstraps, 40cm from the front wall)? I also tried a sub position more to the middle and closer to the front wall but I got the same steep roll-off.
The strange thing is that it doesn‘t necessarily sound like there is such a steep roll off and the Neumann app also shows a fairly linear response with, and something close to my old measurements without the MA-1 auto-alignment active.
Direct comparison of KH310s vs kh310+kh750+ma-1 aligment made it obvious that there is much more bass with the sub, even though on my old measurements without sub I got modal resonance like you did at 34 and 67 Hz, which are apparently completely gone if the measurement can be believed.
So I wonder if that is due to the mic (I sent back the other one I had), the sub position or just that the frequencies below 60hz aren‘t that important even for bass heavy music - and that the removal of the more hearable dip from 75-130Hz masked the disappearance.
I will make systematic measurements tomorrow and post them here...
No, i used a UMIK-1 for those measurements. At some point i made a few measurements with the MA 1, too, but i don´t remember really. They didn´t show any strange rolloffs, though.
I THINK these two measurements are with 2 different microphones (UMIK 1 (violet, with cal-file) vs. MA1 (green, without cal-file); Left channel, MMM, var smoothing), but with different settings! If i remember correctly the dip at 300Hz and the different treble roll-off are due to different EQ-settings i tried at this time. If this is true, at least bass is identical with both microphone. Sorry, but i don´t know for sure what i did there. I didn´t try to systematically compare the microphones.
My dealer (who spoke to the manufacturer about it) told me the MA 1 should work well for measurements even without a calibration file, because it should be "very neutral".
Could it be you still have the calibration file from your old mic loaded?
Here is what I would really like from Neumann: The possibility of good multi-sub calibration in this software, AND the introduction of two smaller and cheaper subs in addition to the DSP 750 sub. My use-case is for building up a multichannel setup. I think the software already supports that? So what remains then is multisub operation. I'd also much rather have two smaller subwoofers than one big. I don't care about sub 40 hz bass to be honest, I just want good and even bass in the sub 100 hz range, and that requires two subwoofers crossed over high and good calibration and room correction.
What is attractive for me about the Neumann approach is that one doesn't need a connected computer for playback. I want to use Logic7 for upsampling stereo to multichannel using an old Lexicon processor. I'm also old-fashioned and primarily want to play CDs from a CD-player. Btw, does anybody know btw if the KH 80 DSP speakers can be controlled wirelessly, or if they require wired connection?
I could also look at Genelec. OR cave in and connect my mac to the Lexicon receiver, and use dirac live.
No. MA 1 supports Stereo only.
AFAIK Neumann´s primary target group is professional users.
KH 80 manual: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/8995/download (spoiler: wired to a network-switch)
Thanks! Ok, so I'll in any case have to wait a bit to see if neumann start supporting multichannel calibration...
Thanks for your answer. My old mic was a Beyerdynamic MM1 and I didn't use a cal file for the measurments.
However it might be possible that the Beyerdynamic shows way to much bass and therefore my previous measurments took me off track.
As you said, the MA-1 is completly flat from 20kHz down to 20Hz, I think Beyerdynamic didn't only specced it to 63Hz but I can't remember it for sure (sent it back after MA-1 was announced).
I put the KH750DSP right against the front wall next to my bass traps this morning, first tests showed it could be a very significant improvement but I still have to complete the MA-1 aligment/measurements and the double check with REW. I will post my results then. I also think it wasn't a great idea to have the KH750 DSP under my studio desk (Unterlaß Duo Desk Key oT), but the bass traps and desk take so much space that I don't have many options for subwoofer placement.
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
BEFORE CORRECTION (edit: NO SUBWOOFER !)
It would be interesting if you could share measurements post phase and FR correction -- sweeps for left, right, L+R sum (exact positioning crucial) -- either one is enough. So we can see how the phase, wavelets and GD change for the sub+speakers combo.
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