omnidirectional loudspeakers = best design available

[dasdoing]

to copy "natural producion of sound sources" with omnis you would need an omi for every pan and depth position....i.e....to reproduce a 80 pieces orchestra you would need 80 speakers lol
stereo sound is a compromise...it is not a realy good one, sure, but solutions look different, e.g. Ambiophonics

 

[Blumlein 88]

There is at least one instance where a true omni will satisfy the requirements of reproducing a recording naturally. A percussion instrument recorded in an open (anechoic) space. Take the kettle drum. It radiates equal sound within a 360 degree space. With no reflections, a microphone will pick up an equal signal regardless of placement around the drum.

Reproducing the signal in a very large space (say if you lived in Biltmore or Windsor castle) a single omni in the center of the room would essentially recreate the drum's sound, and would do so regardless of listening position. You could walk around the speaker like you were walking around the actual drum, and hear the same sound. You couldn't do that with a direct radiator, because once you got off-axis the sound would change.

So, if your listening tastes run to single (or a combination of closely spaced) percussion, then the omni would be the best bet, if you liked to walk around the room while listening.

There's a kettle drum in that link I posted up thread. See if it sounds the same in any direction from the recording side.

 

[Mnyb]

I’ve spent some time reading Morrison speakers ad copy . Seem to be well built speakers and purposes engineered to be good omnis but the material is filled with many “no true Scotsman “ arguments about recordings? Mixed multi mic recordings how dare you ! They are not good .
They also parrots op’s Arguments that most so called omnis are not in proper omnis . This is also a bit “ no true Scotsman “ as op almost single out the Morrison design ?

So apparently you must have the exact rigth refined recording and artist tastes to enjoy the speakers

If you just like some artist and a disparate set of genres your are not worthy or enjoy a movie.

Personally I think multichannel recordings and a multichannel speakers system with controlled directivity is very convincing and versatile enough for actual use . Not just some curiosity one trick pony .

That said I would like a demo if they where possible, this kind o speciality products can only be bought in good faith and most people can not demo this kind of speaker anywhere.

So if OP want s to promote the omni concept , I’m looking forward to less cult arguments ( there is no best all speakers are some kind of working set of 1000’s compromises) and some more nuanced and easy to understand arguments ?

Why should any music lover with interest in multiple genres and an average room want this kind of speaker.
And also present counter arguments. I don’t believe in to categorical arguments about speakers they are so compromised . It’s not like if the earth is flat or round where you can prove someone categorically wrong.

If omnis where the silver bullit we have more of them already?

 

[anmpr1]

There's a kettle drum in that link I posted up thread. See if it sounds the same in any direction from the recording side.

Didn't see the link. A suitable percussion instrument (kettle or snare, cymbal, a bell) struck in an open space, sans reflections, will sound the same as you walk around it. Because there is no 'front', 'side', or 'back' to a circular drum. A microphone will pick up an equal SPL regardless of its placement around the instrument. You can record it monophonically and capture a pretty close facsimile of its actual sound.

Of course in a studio or live venue, a place with ambient clues secondary to reflections, this will not be the case. Add other instruments and it's goodbye Charlie.

What we always must keep in mind is that with our hi-fi gear we are not listening to the instrument qua instrument, but rather are we listening to the 'sound' that the microphone captures. Which is not the same thing. A recording of actual music, no matter how good the recording, when played in your living room, is never going to be indistinguishable from the real thing. Never.

Back in the day manufacturers sometimes demoed 'live v recorded' programs. They'd have a violin or string quartet playing, then switch to a loudspeaker. People couldn't tell the difference. Mostly because the 'experiment' was conducted in a large space, with musicians on a stage, and where the sound tended to be vague and diffuse by the time it got to the listener. Take the same musical group and same loudspeaker to your house and I can guarantee that anyone will be able to tell the difference.

The biggest determinate of home sound reproduction, and the biggest remaining 'problem' in home hi-fi is the recording and the loudspeaker. The consumer can't really do anything about the recording. Different with loudspeakers. I think that people who enjoy the omni sound, or the electrostatic sound, or even horns, are reacting to the typical 'closed in' sound of box speakers. No matter how good a box speaker is, it will have the characteristic sound of a box. And in general, a musical instrument does not sound like it is coming out of a box.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Didn't see the link. A suitable percussion instrument (kettle or snare, cymbal, a bell) struck in an open space, sans reflections, will sound the same as you walk around it. Because there is no 'front', 'side', or 'back' to a circular drum. A microphone will pick up an equal SPL regardless of its placement around the instrument. You can record it monophonically and capture a pretty close facsimile of its actual sound.

Of course in a studio or live venue, a place with ambient clues secondary to reflections, this will not be the case. Add other instruments and it's goodbye Charlie.

What we always must keep in mind is that with our hi-fi gear we are not listening to the instrument qua instrument, but rather are we listening to the 'sound' that the microphone captures. Which is not the same thing. A recording of actual music, no matter how good the recording, when played in your living room, is never going to be indistinguishable from the real thing. Never.

Back in the day manufacturers sometimes demoed 'live v recorded' programs. They'd have a violin or string quartet playing, then switch to a loudspeaker. People couldn't tell the difference. Mostly because the 'experiment' was conducted in a large space, with musicians on a stage, and where the sound tended to be vague and diffuse by the time it got to the listener. Take the same musical group and same loudspeaker to your house and I can guarantee that anyone will be able to tell the difference.

The biggest determinate of home sound reproduction, and the biggest remaining 'problem' in home hi-fi is the recording and the loudspeaker. The consumer can't really do anything about the recording. Different with loudspeakers. I think that people who enjoy the omni sound, or the electrostatic sound, or even horns, are reacting to the typical 'closed in' sound of box speakers. No matter how good a box speaker is, it will have the characteristic sound of a box. And in general, a musical instrument does not sound like it is coming out of a box.

Sorry, didn't have a kettle drum, but did have a snare.
http://soundmedia.jp/nuaudk/17SN/index.html
While closer than most instruments to what you are describing it isn't the same in all directions or distances. Room effects.

And room effects matter with those live vs reproducted demos. I've done the experiment. Recording in a dead space instruments, and playing them back in my living room with several speakers. One instrument for one speaker. It is true you won't quite be fooled vs the real thing. I think you'd be very much surprised how close it becomes however. Even though the speaker doesn't have the same directivity of the instrument, you do have a real sound source in the same real spot in a real room. That goes a long, long ways toward making it sound like the instrument is right there. Some of that is because our hearing focuses so much on the direct arrival of sound. If your speaker and mics are pretty flat you get a convincing illusion. Much more than is the normal case.

 

[EJ3]

The last pair I heard was sitting in a corner, on top of a Klipschorn.

I have a female friend that has a pair sitting on top of her Altec Lansing's in a walk in closet. She says the the 901's only sounded good when used in conjunction with the Altec's (although she did set up the 901's as per spec, then added that Altec's to the room).

 

[Harmonie]

So many posts since .
Reminds me of an egg shaped omni at the Salon de la HiFi >20 years ago when it was still exhibited at the Palais des Congrès, Porte Maillot in Paris.
The guy was indicating that just one loudspeaker was sufficient as it was a 360° omni.

 

[Harmonie]

Omnis are great
for mono recordings or for pink noise. (forget it in stereo systems)

 

[anmpr1]

Makers of omnidirectional loudspeakers include: ...Would the no longer produced BEO LAB 5 belong in this category?

The 5 was not conceptually an omni. The low bass driver fired downward, the mid bass was forward firing, the mid and HF drivers faced up, into a special wave guide or lens (sourced from Sausalito Audio Works) resulting in a 180 degree wave launch into the room. Anything from about 500 Hz went into the lenses and spread evenly into the listening room.

Personally I liked its sound. Certainly it wasn't like a forward firing 'box'. In addition to DSP you had the ICE amps which threw out over 2000 watts per channel. I didn't like the Dr. Who styling, or the price. But given what you got it wasn't really overpriced. Not like a lot of the 'high end' stuff you encounter.

 

[EJ3]

LX Mini isn't omni of any sort.

That thing listing the LX MINI was copied from the first post (Mr. Speaker) [I have never even seen a photo of the LX Mini and have no clue as to what it is or is not]:

I asked if the BEOLAB 5 was an OMNI? Thank you anmpr1.

 

[Helicopter]

I keep thinking that if microphones were only placed at the source, rather than in the room, and if studios used omnis for mastering then those recordings would be better on omnis, but actual recordings won't.

Finally, the best solution for this type of sound is a modern concert grand player piano with music recorded on a MIDI source. Vocals and other instruments can just be eschewed. Pianos are versatile anyway.

 

[Zvu]

That thing listing the LX MINI was copied from the first post (Mr. Speaker) [I have never even seen a photo of the LX Mini and have no clue as to what it is or is not:

I asked if the BEOLAB 5 was an OMNI? Thank you anmpr1.

https://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/Introduction.htm

If you find some measurements for Beolab 5 (frequency response 0-180 degrees) i'll tell you if it is omni or not.

 

[EJ3]

The 5 was not conceptually an omni. The low bass driver fired downward, the mid bass was forward firing, the mid and HF drivers faced up, into a special wave guide or lens (sourced from Sausalito Audio Works) resulting in a 180 degree wave launch into the room. Anything from about 500 Hz went into the lenses and spread evenly into the listening room.

Personally I liked its sound. Certainly it wasn't like a forward firing 'box'. In addition to DSP you had the ICE amps which threw out over 2000 watts per channel. I didn't like the Dr. Who styling, or the price. But given what you got it wasn't really overpriced. Not like a lot of the 'high end' stuff you encounter.

I have seen them in all the positions in a 7.2 surround sound system but did not get to hear them (then or at any other time) but liked the concept. Also the fact that you don't need an amplifier rack & have DSP on board. The styling didn't bother me. All the parts that were normally silver appeared to be brass. From a styling view, I would be OK using them as a stereo pair. Having never actually heard them, I don't know. At this point in time the expense would definitely be an issue.

 

[anmpr1]

The 5 had some great sonic features, but some drawbacks. The idea was to minimize floor and ceiling reflections. That was suitably accomplished by the three largish circular wave guides. So if you were sitting, and moving horizontally, the sound field was very uniform. There was really no 'sweet spot' like you'd get with a typical loudspeaker. The height of the 'image' was, however, restricted due to the self imposed limitation on vertical wave launch. You didn't want to be jumping up and down while listening.

 

[anmpr1]

If you find some measurements for Beolab 5 (frequency response 0-180 degrees) i'll tell you if it is omni or not.

Scroll down to the bottom, there are some measurements with commentary.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web3.htm

 

[Zvu]

Scroll down to the bottom, there are some measurements with commentary.

https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web3.htm

I couldn't conclude anything out of that but i've found polars on Geoff's website and Beolab 5 is definitely not an omni loudspeaker.

 

[EJ3]

I keep thinking that if microphones were only placed at the source, rather than in the room, and if studios used omnis for mastering then those recordings would be better on omnis, but actual recordings won't.

Finally, the best solution for this type of sound is a modern concert grand player piano with music recorded on a MIDI source. Vocals and other instruments can just be eschewed. Pianos are versatile anyway.

If there is no singing, my wife will not be anywhere that the stereo can be heard. That is OK some of the time. But as it is, we haven't seen each other in 2 & 1/2 years due to traveling (normally we would see each other every 3 or 4 months for a few months but this COVID thing has messed that up). So she is in Guam & I am in James Island, SC.

 

[EJ3]

The height of the 'image' was, however, restricted due to the self imposed limitation on vertical wave launch. You didn't want to be jumping up and down while listening.

Being that I am only 5'8" & my wife is just shy of 5"2" we might have to jump high to make a major difference. Being as my room has a cathedral ceiling, a curved large bay window (with a shelf that a couple of people can sit on, heavy curtains and a 96 inch couch in front of it and a 12 ft by 14 ft heavy carpet with heavy backing), a larger than average brick fire place in front, a ceiling that drops to 8 ft on the right with a 12 foot open space leading into a dining room and a half wall behind that is open to a staircase I am not sure what might happen with a pair of BEO 5's in the room. Any speakers and subs require some adjustments, but standing waves are not an issue that I can tell. On the other hand, I have yet to break out my measuring mike & see. I just haven't felt the need.

 

[EJ3]

The 5 had some great sonic features, but some drawbacks. The idea was to minimize floor and ceiling reflections. That was suitably accomplished by the three largish circular wave guides. So if you were sitting, and moving horizontally, the sound field was very uniform. There was really no 'sweet spot' like you'd get with a typical loudspeaker. The height of the 'image' was, however, restricted due to the self imposed limitation on vertical wave launch. You didn't want to be jumping up and down while listening.

I don't like the restrictions that a narrow sweet spot places on me, so, I need a bit wider sweet spot and as long as the vertical is high enough for me to move around a bit, I'm OK.

 

[watchnerd]

Okay, I'm unwatching this thread....

I'm going to go do something productive like make my new Roon endpoint using my new Pi DAC.

I can only spend so much time on obsolete speaker concepts before it changes from being mildly amusing to just a complete waste of time.