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What is going on with Paradigm?

andreasmaaan

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The same high end tweeter is designed with 4 different materials.
And for sure the worst measurements and listening tests were with the aluminium material.
The only plus is when you have cymbals playing in the recording because you are hearing a metallic sound.
But the measured curved are awful with a lot of parasitic oscillations.

There are so many various materials that made great drivers, but not aluminium.

It most certainly does not have the worst measurements of that bunch (the silk dome’s messy amplitude response and premature beaming due to diaphragm break-up make it virtually unusable).

And the “awful parasitic oscillations” are at 30+kHz, ie completely inaudible.

Please come back with a plausible technical reason why aluminium is allegedly a substandard material.

As it is, you’re hopping between various threads making scientifically unfounded claims about aluminium that are going to mislead people who don’t have the technical knowledge to see through them.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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YI thought it was funny pushing the L100 for a home speaker as a rework of their studio monitor. The monitor was excellent at making anything wrong sound worse so the recording engineer could address it, quite the opposite of what I want in my home.

I don't think those speakers have the ability to differentiate something 'worse' from everything else . They do have a lot of projection in the middle of the audio band which tends to make it easier to hear what's going on in a mix. In that sense, yeah, I agree. I have had JBL 4412 monitors for decades, and use them as recording monitors (I also have 4 18" JBL subs and 2405H diffraction tweeters). They don't sound bad while playing music for enjoyment, but I prefer my main speakers which are voiced to be a bit more forgiving.
 

tvrgeek

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Nice try at a diss.

That Devore's desire to create an easy to drive loudspeaker is "unsubstantiated" and mere "unquestioned faith" is nonsense. Again, John Atkinson measured the Devore and commented:

"Overall, the DeVore O/96 is one of the easiest speakers for an amplifier to drive that I have encountered. "

So stop, please, with your condescending nonsense. Thanks.


Really silly folks. There is NO excuse for an a speaker system to be a difficult load these days. Actually never was. They are a consumer product designed to plug and play. Any speaker system, or any amplifier that is not, is a piece of crap. So advertising you have met minimum bottom feeding goals may be true, but is just advertising garage. Again, magazine writers looking for some dribble to fill the pages with. Atkinson not excluded.

"Tubes in mind" ? More marketing BS. Even I know enough to model my systems to verify a reasonable load and I don't do it for a living! Even I can design an amplifier that can withstand a pretty wide range of impedance in any quadrant. Not hard.
 

DonH56

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Not sure why the vendetta against Al, or why it is now the focus of this thread... The single test example provided in the other ASR thread indicated to me a cone not properly mated with (or damped by) the surround or whatever to produce the HF ringing. I doubt it is the cone/dome itself though it could be if overdriven. AFAIK the argument against Al has been made on marketing rather than engineering principles -- people see an Al dome and think "metallic" when in fact the performance measured or in a DBT is far better than a typical silk dome.

Whatever...
 

tvrgeek

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Not sure why the vendetta against Al, or why it is now the focus of this thread... The single test example provided in the other ASR thread indicated to me a cone not properly mated with (or damped by) the surround or whatever to produce the HF ringing. I doubt it is the cone/dome itself though it could be if overdriven. AFAIK the argument against Al has been made on marketing rather than engineering principles -- people see an Al dome and think "metallic" when in fact the performance measured or in a DBT is far better than a typical silk dome.

Whatever...
Agree. It is all about application. Some very expensive silk domes ring like an SOB and at a lower frequency making them more difficult to use. Same with Al mids vs. other materials. Sure they ring, but if it is high enough, you can deal with it. Some paper cones the resonance is lower Q, but lower frequency. All a matter of how it is engineered. If my only experience with an Al dome was my Studio 20's, I sure would not have used some Seas drivers I found to be quite superior to their soft domes. BUT, not to condemn soft domes, SB and Vifa stabilize their dome centers to be far better behaved. The new CSS soft domes are getting rave reviews.

We do not have an infinitely light, infinitely rigid, ultra low Q, cheap material. So until we do, it is up to the engineers to do the best they can with the materials available. So far the best tweeter or mid I can afford happen to be Al. But one of the worst tweeters I had was also aluminum. So there.
 

MattHooper

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Really silly folks. There is NO excuse for an a speaker system to be a difficult load these days. Actually never was.

And yet many high end speakers have presented difficult loads, and certainly the average high end speaker more difficult loads than the Devore.
I don't know why you are remarking that the Devore discussion is "silly" when Devore himself felt similar to you: that speakers should not present a difficult load for an amplifer, and yet a significant proportion of high end speakers were doing just that. So he wanted to ensure his didn't.
Your beef is with those manufacturers who do make speakers harder to drive, no?


Any speaker system, or any amplifier that is not, is a piece of crap.

Wait...talk about being silly. :rolleyes:

Some of the best sounding speakers I've heard and owned were significantly more difficult loads. That would include my Thiel speakers and my MBL omni speakers especially. Different speaker designers can aim at different design goals, and so compromises are juggled. I don't know how you would make something like an MBL omni speaker, one that works as well, an easy load. If so, you have a market niche you can exploit.

You seem to be viewing things through a very narrow blinder. (But I've found that is a common tendency among people who build their own speakers. Once they've gone down their own route, they get more fixated on "what makes for the right speaker design" and start to diss diversions from their own conclusions).

"Tubes in mind" ? More marketing BS.

Uh..no. He really did want his speakers to play well with tube amps, as did part of the market he was catering to. And, again, this is verified by the Stereophile measurements, that they are a particularly easy load IN THE CONTEXT of other offerings in the high end speaker market.


Even I know enough to model my systems to verify a reasonable load

Sure, who couldn't at this stage? But you are presuming your own goals here over the varying goals of other speaker designers. (And I have no idea if your speakers would sound as good to me as the designs you are critiquing).


a
nd I don't do it for a living! Even I can design an amplifier that can withstand a pretty wide range of impedance in any quadrant. Not hard.

Of course! Amp designs are a known quantity at this point, and plenty of people can design an SS amp that can withstand a wider range of impedance. But that's not the point. The point is plenty of people LIKE using tube amplification, much of which is more reactive to speaker impedance, and so a speaker like the Devore WILL be easier to drive than many of the alternatives. As Atkinson pointed out.
 

watchnerd

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Uh..no. He really did want his speakers to play well with tube amps, as did part of the market he was catering to. And, again, this is verified by the Stereophile measurements, that they are a particularly easy load IN THE CONTEXT of other offerings in the high end speaker market.

I don't find any reason to disbelieve this, given the particular design decisions and compromises Devore has chosen.

To me his designs seem to share some outward similarities with speakers like the Tannoy Legacy series speakers, such as the Arden, Eaton, or Cheviot, which are also fairly high sensitivity, have big wide range drivers, with big fat cabinets, and are said to go nicely with tubes.
 
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richard12511

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Yes, it was their typical practice back in the 70's. L26, L36, L100 and that era. "Jump off the shelf" was a term salesmen used. I have not even seen a JBL for home use in a couple of decades. I thought it was funny pushing the L100 for a home speaker as a rework of their studio monitor. The monitor was excellent at making anything wrong sound worse so the recording engineer could address it, quite the opposite of what I want in my home.

I was referring more to modern JBL, as I have no experience with vintage JBL. Modern JBL is one of the very best out there making some of the best speakers in the world(M2).
 

rynberg

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Sad to see. Paradigm's have always been designed with a slight "smile" response, but their older speakers had a very flat midrange. The Prestige line, in particular, seems to have completely thrown out good engineering for marketing (using an 8-inch midrange???).

As a longtime Paradigm owner, I'm hoping that Bagby taking back control of the company will result in higher performing, more neutral speakers again.
 

mmeysarosh

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In regards to the DeVore audio commentary, I once met him while he was testing while he was testing out a prototype speaker which I believe we see today as the Gibbon X. He was at the location at the time comparing amp pairings with the speaker.

What I can attest to is that he takes a considerable effort to ensure his designs are impedance stable throughout the audio range in that they work well with a good variety of amplification sources. He also had shown an appreciation to tube amplification as he commented on preferences on a brand, which at the moment I don't recall in specific.

There are a good deal of notable speakers that do have an impedance load that many tube amplifiers would struggle with. Neither the Kef Reference or the PerformaBe lines present themselves as easy loads for some amplifiers, both being best served with designs that are happy operating at and slightly below 4 ohms. Some of the Magico designs can be punishing for some amps and produce excellent measured performance. I believe a big part of the requirements are the directions on crossover design, driver choices, cabinet volume, and other parameters I'm sure to miss.

As for the material commentary, no matter the choice in diaphragm material on any driver, a designer must work within the boundaries of the technical ability of those material choices. This often works against the combination of costs and design goals, which may not be the ideal way to approach the project, but its their effort so are more than welcome to make an effort.
 

Pdxwayne

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Well...I just spent $7K on a new set of speakers.

I didn't really obsess about how high fidelity they were or what the spinorama might be.

They sounded good enough.

Ultimately, it's entertainment money. I'm not trying to run an audio lab of some kind. If I like the way they sound and look and they bring me joy, that's fine. I don't really care that much beyond that.

Speakers aren't an investment; they depreciate. If I get X hours of enjoyment out of them at Y cost/hr before I move on to a new pair, and Y cost/hr is in my budget, I don't worry about it being wasted funds any more than I worry that money spent on vacation is wasted.
So, you also got Persona B?
 

Pdxwayne

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So what kind of conversation you wish to continue here?

So freq is not flat. How about distortion levels in the highs, after 2K? You saw all the measurements I supposed, not just the freq measurements?
 

watchnerd

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So what kind of conversation you wish to continue here?

So freq is not flat. How about distortion levels in the highs, after 2K? You saw all the measurements I supposed, not just the freq measurements?

I just thought the thread should have the perspective of an actual Persona owner.

Because some of the thread posters seem mystified as to why anyone would buy them given how the FR measures.
 

Pdxwayne

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I just thought the thread should have the perspective of an actual Persona owner.

Because some of the thread posters seem mystified as to why anyone would buy them given how the FR measures.
Hmm, what can I say that reviewers didn't already say?

Did you see measurements of headphones? How about hd800s that Amit just reviewed recently? Praised by him. See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sennheiser-hd800s-review-headphone.18424/

Flat? Nope. Why people still buy hd800s? Food for thought.....
 
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avanti1960

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This is one of the many marketing blurbs from Paradigms website:

"Loudspeakers should be neutral, and have no identifiable sound of their own. The Holy Grail of audio is a loudspeaker that is so utterly transparent that the performance sounds "live," with nothing coming between the performer and your ears.

Paradigm loudspeakers come very close to this Holy Grail, indeed. Years of scientific research into the nature of sound reproduction and its effects on the human ear have given Paradigm engineers deep insight into the problems of audio coloration. The most advanced research & development, and most advanced program of testing and measurement, have led Paradigm engineers to innovations that fight, and often eliminate, coloration in Paradigm loudspeakers.

That's why Paradigm loudspeakers are known to be so timbrally accurate and virtually transparent, to more faithfully reproduce the distinctive character of any audio signal.

With Paradigm, it's just you and your audio."

Also:

"A flat frequency response means that all the performance-robbing resonances, deficiencies, and colorations have been ironed out of the speaker's performance. All that remains is the lifelike sound. Audiophiles universally agree: Flat response (in the important midrange especially) directly correlates to accurate audio reproduction.

This is the Holy Grail of loudspeaker performance. Paradigm achieves it."

Here is Stereophile's LW measurement of their top of the line Prestige series speaker, the 95F(Stereophile review of Paradigm Prestige 95F):
1215P95Ffig04.jpg


?????

Paradigm has the resources and capability to make great speakers....all in house, which is a rare occurrence.
like all good companies :) marketing never talks to engineering.......
 

avanti1960

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This is one of the many marketing blurbs from Paradigms website:

"Loudspeakers should be neutral, and have no identifiable sound of their own. The Holy Grail of audio is a loudspeaker that is so utterly transparent that the performance sounds "live," with nothing coming between the performer and your ears.

Paradigm loudspeakers come very close to this Holy Grail, indeed. Years of scientific research into the nature of sound reproduction and its effects on the human ear have given Paradigm engineers deep insight into the problems of audio coloration. The most advanced research & development, and most advanced program of testing and measurement, have led Paradigm engineers to innovations that fight, and often eliminate, coloration in Paradigm loudspeakers.

That's why Paradigm loudspeakers are known to be so timbrally accurate and virtually transparent, to more faithfully reproduce the distinctive character of any audio signal.

With Paradigm, it's just you and your audio."

Also:

"A flat frequency response means that all the performance-robbing resonances, deficiencies, and colorations have been ironed out of the speaker's performance. All that remains is the lifelike sound. Audiophiles universally agree: Flat response (in the important midrange especially) directly correlates to accurate audio reproduction.

This is the Holy Grail of loudspeaker performance. Paradigm achieves it."

Here is Stereophile's LW measurement of their top of the line Prestige series speaker, the 95F(Stereophile review of Paradigm Prestige 95F):
1215P95Ffig04.jpg


?????

Paradigm has the resources and capability to make great speakers....all in house, which is a rare occurrence.
those are from 2015 and are their home theater speakers- of which they believe the product is well suited.
The "audiophile" Persona models do much better.....

https://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-persona-5f-loudspeaker-measurements
 

MrPeabody

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The present marketing spiel is an attempt to alter most people's memories. Based on some of the comments here, I think it may be working.

I still have a vivid recollection of one of the very worst speaker auditioning experiences I've ever had, back around twenty years ago. I can't recall the model, but it was a tall floor-standing speaker, and not their flagship, but still an expensive speaker. I recall being immediately taken aback by just how exaggerated the upper treble was. It was so overt and so unpleasant that I could not keep from sharing my thoughts with the salesperson. It seemed to me that this had to have been done intentionally, and for the obvious reason. It has long been common knowledge that consumers listening to speakers in retail showrooms are impressed by speakers with an unnatural emphasis in upper treble, and are more likely to buy that kind of speaker than a speaker with a flat response.

Exaggerated upper treble is typically associated with aluminum tweeters, however this doesn't always happen with aluminum tweeters, and it sometimes happens with non-metal drivers. Sometimes the true blame is cone breakup of an aluminum midrange, and the tweeter gets the blame. If a manufacturer wants the speaker to have a pronounced emphasis in upper treble, the manufacturer will most likely prefer to use an aluminum dome in the expectation that it will exaggerate upper treble. Manufacturers who do this probably bear the lion's share of blame for the bad rap that aluminum tweeters have.

In the case of that Paradigm floor-standing speaker that I auditioned some twenty years ago, it was definitely the tweeter (not breakup of the midrange), and it was simply a matter of the tweeter having a fairly narrow peak in its response, in the vicinity of 8 kHz as I recall. If aluminum is to be blamed, it is necessary to positively identify breakup of the dome as the culprit. With most metal domes, the breakup occurs higher in frequency than 10 kHz, where most of us wouldn't hear it. And it is easy to identify the breakup range in the response curve, because of the sharp, closely spaced peaks and dips. When we hear an exaggeration of upper treble, it is usually a bit lower in frequency, typically in the vicinity of 6 kHz to 8 kHz. And while there must obviously be a resonance of some sort that is to blame for this peak in sensitivity, the peak in response in this frequency range isn't typically due to the breakup of the aluminum dome. (And it isn't the primary resonance of the driver, because that occurs much lower in frequency, well down into the midrange in most cases.)
 

richard12511

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