Speaker choice - Neumann, Dutch & Dutch, KEF

[richard12511]

Some GLM measurements of the W371 in a listener's room using the three different modes posted on this ASR thread

Also seems to show similar HF rise as @judgespear 's measurements. Very strange. Either both have the +2 treble engaged, or it's due to much closer measurement, or it's a difference between 8351 and 8361?

 

[TimVG]

Also seems to show similar HF rise as @judgespear 's measurements. Very strange. Either both have the +2 treble engaged, or it's due to much closer measurement, or it's a difference between 8351 and 8361?

No rising response anechoically speaking

 

[Lorenzo74]

As far as I know, the Kii Three(even with BXT) doesn't do this, so you'd end up with a much more peaky/dippy response than what you'd get with the W371A.

hi Richard, apologize but I respectfully disagree...
as i said Kii three is using separate woofers to create that active cardioid pattern like w371. while the Finnish implement it with two large speakers -kii does it with 2 woofer in the back, two woofer on the side and one midrange in front. 3 sound source spaced longitudinally in the space with corresponding delay at different frequency band. it's complex and the results are a bass (relatively) free from null and peak, the best you can achieve in room, ever since it control horizontal and with BXT vertical dispersion (6 woofer on the back, 6 on the side).
hope this help to clarify my statement that the bass of kii three + BXT is unmatched by any (as far as I know) other assembly.
I see from your posts and comment we are both striving for the most important point left undealt in the audio reproduction at home, the room interaction. defintly DSP and room treatment are the way to go. it's much more important that 20db on DAC THD... we'll see who'll be first, Amir or Erin in Kii three measurements to compare to D&D.
my Best

 

[HooStat]

I attached mine for comparison.

Is that just the 8351b in room response? Or do you have subs in there too? It looks great, which is why I am asking.

 

[richard12511]

Is that just the 8351b in room response? Or do you have subs in there too? It looks great, which is why I am asking.

Yeah I have subs taking over down low. I posted that more to highlight the 6,000-20,000Hz differences.

 

[YSC]

Yeah I have subs taking over down low. I posted that more to highlight the 6,000-20,000Hz differences.

May I ask what subs you use?

 

[richard12511]

May I ask what subs you use?

JTR Captivator RS2s.

 

[YSC]

JTR Captivator RS2s.

that's a really nice one, one idiotic question, I assume if I use the Genelec sub with their main monitors be it the 80xx or 83xx series they should have same sensitivity on input and no need to do extra sub spl tuning, but with third party ones you will need to use mic and REW to seriously make the sub not over/underpower compared to the main monitors?

 

[richard12511]

that's a really nice one, one idiotic question, I assume if I use the Genelec sub with their main monitors be it the 80xx or 83xx series they should have same sensitivity on input and no need to do extra sub spl tuning, but with third party ones you will need to use mic and REW to seriously make the sub not over/underpower compared to the main monitors?

Yeah if using the Genelec SAM sub (I tried the 7370Cs at first), then it will automatically level and phase match it to the monitor you choose. What listening distance are you looking at? One issue I've had(and don't know how to fix) with GLM is that none of the target curves(even manual) fits the approximate response of the monitors at ~3.5m, so I end up with unnecessary shelf filters that I don't want.

 

[YSC]

Yeah if using the Genelec SAM sub (I tried the 7370Cs at first), then it will automatically level and phase match it to the monitor you choose. What listening distance are you looking at? One issue I've had(and don't know how to fix) with GLM is that none of the target curves(even manual) fits the approximate response of the monitors at ~3.5m, so I end up with unnecessary shelf filters that I don't want.

For myself I likely can't afford space for a sub, I am sitting like 70cm from the main monitors on a typical desk, where my legrooms are where I could put a 7040A and not blocking the minor space for my legs to stretch, so a sub actually seems not possible to be placed let alone optimally. but just wondering in a normal 10m2 room with a 2.1 setting, I expect with the volume knob set to min or max for 8020 and the 7040 should make the same sensitivity and only need to care about the phase alignment issue?

 

[richard12511]

For myself I likely can't afford space for a sub, I am sitting like 70cm from the main monitors on a typical desk, where my legrooms are where I could put a 7040A and not blocking the minor space for my legs to stretch, so a sub actually seems not possible to be placed let alone optimally. but just wondering in a normal 10m2 room with a 2.1 setting, I expect with the volume knob set to min or max for 8020 and the 7040 should make the same sensitivity and only need to care about the phase alignment issue?

Ahh, that's super close! For a 70cm listening distance, you may be satisfied with the 8351(or 61) bass response on it's own. Below you can see what the bass response of the 8351b looks like in my room without subs before running Dirac.

 

[YSC]

Ahh, that's super close! For a 70cm listening distance, you may be satisfied with the 8351(or 61) bass response on it's own. Below you can see what the bass response of the 8351b looks like in my room without subs before running Dirac.

that was really nice, actually I am using a pair of 8030Cs atm and quite satisified, the 83xx is way above my budget for toys anyway, just hijack this thread to ask for sub integration if that is possible in future.

 

[Frank Dernie]

HHB have a London showroom I will make an appointment once allowed.

Me too.
There is a video from a demo showing the use of the software (maybe even from the London showroom) which I have come across and watched but didn't bookmark.
iirc it shows the level of bass evenness achievable, it looked good to me. It also showed them suggesting adjusting the FR to taste once the basic room setup is done.

 

[Frank Dernie]

as i said Kii three is using separate woofers to create that active cardioid pattern like w371.

You seem to be determined to confuse cardioid response from the BXT, which will NOT resolve room mode excitation, with the alternative mode offered by the W371 (along with a cardioid as another alternative) which is showing to be good at filling the nulls due to room modes.
As far as I can see nobody, including Kii, are claiming a setting to do this by using different signals to the different bass units of the BXT. Just having a lot of bass units does not do it.
AFAIK Genelec are the only company having designed a bass system tp optimise for it that I have seen.
It does mean you can not have both with GLM on W371, it would seem. You have to choose cardioid or room compensation to fill nulls, not both.
OTOH I rather like the styling of the Kii/BXT and the controller with multiple inputs and a proper rotary volume control.
The Genelec is form-for-function and, IMO, hideous.

 

[YSC]

You seem to be determined to confuse cardioid response from the BXT, which will NOT resolve room mode excitation, with the alternative mode offered by the W371 (along with a cardioid as another alternative) which is showing to be good at filling the nulls due to room modes.
As far as I can see nobody, including Kii, are claiming a setting to do this by using different signals to the different bass units of the BXT. Just having a lot of bass units does not do it.
AFAIK Genelec are the only company having designed a bass system tp optimise for it that I have seen.
It does mean you can not have both with GLM on W371, it would seem. You have to choose cardioid or room compensation to fill nulls, not both.
OTOH I rather like the styling of the Kii/BXT and the controller with multiple inputs and a proper rotary volume control.
The Genelec is form-for-function and, IMO, hideous.

Just asking if the Genelecs can fill in the bulls why need cardioid? As it seems cardioid is for preventing the room modes but if it can be prevented by other way it seems there’s no reason to try to do cardioid? Just saying if glm and the w371 with the ones can give a null less in room flat response that should be achieving the ultimate goal of hifi?

 

[judgespear]

Just a remark, but that's quite an odd rising response in the treble. You'd expect given some distance the treble to slope down, which would be normal and desirable. Even in the nearfield it should never be more than just 'flat'. You're confident the microphone orientation was correct? No dip switches engaged on the back?

Everything was correct. Ni dip switches engaged. I had to take down the treble with the sound profiler by -4db. Microphone was 1m away. Exactly in my near-field listening position.

 

[YSC]

Everything was correct. Ni dip switches engaged. I had to take down the treble with the sound profiler by -4db. Microphone was 1m away. Exactly in my near-field listening position.

that looked weird though, maybe some kind of room mode in phase boosting the treble from front wall? is the wall close to speaker?

 

[Frank Dernie]

As it seems cardioid is for preventing the room modes

To whom?
Cardioid can not prevent the excitation of room modes. Change it a bit, maybe, prevent it? by what mechanism?

 

[YSC]

To whom?
Cardioid can not prevent the excitation of room modes. Change it a bit, maybe, prevent it? by what mechanism?

Sorry I mainly mean the back wall cancellation stuffs

 

[Purité Audio]

Ideally I would like a pair of w371s 8361 here and compare those rrp £25k? to a pair of 8Cs taking their ‘sub’ outs to a pair of mirrored subs ( inverse phase) behind my listening position, in REWs room sim, this approach looks good.
Your room Frank would be big enough for a ‘sink-source’ experiment!
Keith