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What is going on with Paradigm?

valerianf

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Aluminium driver.
Please read this thread:https:/
/www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bliesma-t25a-6-t25b-6-t25d-6-t25s-6-a-comparison-of-dome-materials.13519/page-2#post-616892
The same high end tweeter is designed with 4 different materials.
And for sure the worst measurements and listening tests were with the aluminium material.
The only plus is when you have cymbals playing in the recording because you are hearing a metallic sound.
But the measured curved are awful with a lot of parasitic oscillations.

There are so many various materials that made great drivers, but not aluminium.
 

MattHooper

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I used to think high fidelity was the most thing important to me when it came to audio.

Now, I'm not so sure.

I feel the same way. I don't feel like holding myself to some rigorous, scientific purity test. I'm just looking for gear through which I enjoy my music.

That's not to say I hold no value for or interest in how things work or measure. I value measurements insofar as they can tell designers (and listeners) how things will sound and why. And the pursuit of fidelity to the signal tends to yield decreasing distortion which can yield very nice sonic benefits over time.

But I don't feel ashamed or letting down the team if I also happen to like speakers or gear that isn't perfectly neutral or hewing to a single, particular design goal

So, in the grand scheme of things, is the highest fidelity really all that important?

Like I've said: I think that the fidelity one is able to get even from products that stray from neutral is plenty for transmitting the bulk of the artistic intent and sonic information of a song or album. It starts to feel neurotic to me if I'm actually thinking to myself "hold on, am I sure that the final nonosecond of that teeny reverb trail on the distant guitar isn't perfectly rendered?"

Having played many of my well-known test tracks on everything from Revel, to Vivid, to countless different speaker designs, I hear essentially the same sonic information about the character of the recordings coming through all of them.

I just want to address the "good" and "bad" speaker assumptions we see in this forum and this thread as well. As I said, the fact not everyone is going for the HK or Dutch and Dutch (or whatever) school of design doesn't mean they are "bad" or that therefore they are just out duping customers. There exist different niches to fill, and I'm happy there are people filling them, as are many other audiophiles.

I've mentioned before my affection for one of the brands that has been a whipping-boy on this forum: Devore. I LOVE the Devore O/96 speakers and hope to possibly own them one day. I'm a pretty informed consumer in this regard, having auditioned and lived with tons of different speaker designs. I'm familiar with and supportive of the research often cited upon with the Revel (and other) speakers have been designed. I've auditioned Revel speakers. I've heard just about every type of speaker design you can name, many times over, and myself have owned everything from electrostatics, to many different dynamic speakers, to omnis. I don't think I'm naively "duped" in to liking those Devore speakers: they represent a sound I've been zeroing in on somewhat for many years.

And as far as goals, Devore was trying to produce a design that split the difference somewhat between old-school and new school, between the big, round, rich sound of the squatter, big woofer box speakers like the old Snell, but also providing a decent level of newer audiophile virtues (e.g. somewhat more neutral, and able to image well).

Plus he was aiming the impedance/load characteristics at people who like using tube amplification, as well as producing a sort of throw-back visual aesthetic. For the audience he was aiming (which included himself) he nailed it. The O/96 since the introduction in 2012 became by far his biggest selling speaker, and they have been relatively rare on the used market (I know, I've been paying attention) and tend to be snapped up fast when they appear. So the product found, or produced, a niche and has an enthusiastic audience who seem very happy for the most part.
You aren't going to end up with a product like the Devore O96 if you are following the Revel school of design, but I'm damned glad someone was aiming for a design like the O/96, if even for the time I've enjoyed it during auditions.
 

mmeysarosh

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The Persona is certainly interesting product from a construction standpoint as many of the material applications were rather progressive. Extensive use of beryllium, a significant leap in fit and finish, not to mention the overall design from an aesthetics standpoint.

The other aspect to consider is the design team has changed and clearly the acoustics goals. Paradigm was never considered a company that created a reticent sounding speaker, but it does appear prior targets were closer to neutral output in past as compared to current.

The variability of the measurements that have been taken from a number of outlets across range is peculiar. I get the inclination that not even internal goals for the product line was likely met. Would be interesting to see if the ability to further evolve the product, but only time will tell.

For the time being, its a product for those that prize resolution above all else. For myself, a hard pass as I've not been very favorable to any loudspeaker with this kind of response.
 
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watchnerd

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I feel the same way. I don't feel like holding myself to some rigorous, scientific purity test. I'm just looking for gear through which I enjoy my music.

That's not to say I hold no value for or interest in how things work or measure. I value measurements insofar as they can tell designers (and listeners) how things will sound and why. And the pursuit of fidelity to the signal tends to yield decreasing distortion which can yield very nice sonic benefits over time.

But I don't feel ashamed or letting down the team if I also happen to like speakers or gear that isn't perfectly neutral or hewing to a single, particular design goal



Like I've said: I think that the fidelity one is able to get even from products that stray from neutral is plenty for transmitting the bulk of the artistic intent and sonic information of a song or album. It starts to feel neurotic to me if I'm actually thinking to myself "hold on, am I sure that the final nonosecond of that teeny reverb trail on the distant guitar isn't perfectly rendered?"

Having played many of my well-known test tracks on everything from Revel, to Vivid, to countless different speaker designs, I hear essentially the same sonic information about the character of the recordings coming through all of them.

I just want to address the "good" and "bad" speaker assumptions we see in this forum and this thread as well. As I said, the fact not everyone is going for the HK or Dutch and Dutch (or whatever) school of design doesn't mean they are "bad" or that therefore they are just out duping customers. There exist different niches to fill, and I'm happy there are people filling them, as are many other audiophiles.

I've mentioned before my affection for one of the brands that has been a whipping-boy on this forum: Devore. I LOVE the Devore O/96 speakers and hope to possibly own them one day. I'm a pretty informed consumer in this regard, having auditioned and lived with tons of different speaker designs. I'm familiar with and supportive of the research often cited upon with the Revel (and other) speakers have been designed. I've auditioned Revel speakers. I've heard just about every type of speaker design you can name, many times over, and myself have owned everything from electrostatics, to many different dynamic speakers, to omnis. I don't think I'm naively "duped" in to liking those Devore speakers: they represent a sound I've been zeroing in on somewhat for many years.

And as far as goals, Devore was trying to produce a design that split the difference somewhat between old-school and new school, between the big, round, rich sound of the squatter, big woofer box speakers like the old Snell, but also providing a decent level of newer audiophile virtues (e.g. somewhat more neutral, and able to image well).

Plus he was aiming the impedance/load characteristics at people who like using tube amplification, as well as producing a sort of throw-back visual aesthetic. For the audience he was aiming (which included himself) he nailed it. The O/96 since the introduction in 2012 became by far his biggest selling speaker, and they have been relatively rare on the used market (I know, I've been paying attention) and tend to be snapped up fast when they appear. So the product found, or produced, a niche and has an enthusiastic audience who seem very happy for the most part.
You aren't going to end up with a product like the Devore O96 if you are following the Revel school of design, but I'm damned glad someone was aiming for a design like the O/96, if even for the time I've enjoyed it during auditions.

I've been attracted to Devore's visual look for a long time.

Part of me wants to get a pair just to look at them.
 

LightninBoy

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Or is "good enough" just fine for musical enjoyment?

Nothing wrong with "good enough". Frankly, I've been happy with "good enough" fidelity for *all* of my life - its why I'm rocking the JBL 306mkii. But those cost $200, not $10,000 like the Persona 3F. I doubt anyone spending 10K is looking for "good enough".
 

Vintage57

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Of course, because those with refined tastes already know what is truly tasteful. ;)

(the original meaning) ;)

correction; about tastes there is no debate.
 

watchnerd

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Nothing wrong with "good enough". Frankly, I've been happy with "good enough" fidelity for *all* of my life - its why I'm rocking the JBL 306mkii. But those cost $200, not $10,000 like the Persona 3F. I doubt anyone spending 10K is looking for "good enough".

Well...I just spent $7K on a new set of speakers.

I didn't really obsess about how high fidelity they were or what the spinorama might be.

They sounded good enough.

Ultimately, it's entertainment money. I'm not trying to run an audio lab of some kind. If I like the way they sound and look and they bring me joy, that's fine. I don't really care that much beyond that.

Speakers aren't an investment; they depreciate. If I get X hours of enjoyment out of them at Y cost/hr before I move on to a new pair, and Y cost/hr is in my budget, I don't worry about it being wasted funds any more than I worry that money spent on vacation is wasted.
 
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watchnerd

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correction; about tastes there is no debate.

That is the literal translation, yes.

But how it's commonly used now is to mean:

As it's all subjective, there is no point in debating taste.

Which is not the original intent.

The original idiomatic intent is what I said.
 

test1223

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Hello,

there is not enough data do judge the performance of the speaker.

1. There might be an angle where the frequency response is much more flat.

2. The room acoustic is also an issue. Even studio monitors provide rough eq options to compensate some of such issues.

3. The listening distance changes the frequency response of some speakers, since no speaker has a pure spherical directivity.

Remember the preference rating is a good start to judge a speaker, but you have some variation if compared with real listening tests.

Best
Thomas
 

Vintage57

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That is the literal translation, yes.

But how it's commonly used now is to mean:

As it's all subjective, there is no point in debating taste.

Which is not the original intent.

The original idiomatic intent is what I said.

no debate, I stand by my translation

I never claimed idiomatic intent.
 

witwald

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Plus he was aiming the impedance/load characteristics [of the DeVore Orangutan O/96] at people who like using tube amplification, as well as producing a sort of throw-back visual aesthetic.
The impedance measurements of the DeVore Orangutan O/96 are much the same as any other multi-driver loudspeaker. Their response will be equalised by tube amplification, which generally has a low damping factor, in the typically expected manner for a speaker of their type. The impedance curve also seems to indicate that there are some unwanted resonances present, which can potentially result in audible colouration of their sound reproduction.
 

witwald

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there is not enough data do judge the performance of the speaker.
Maybe that is true if the data that's there is going to be largely ignored.
1. There might be an angle where the frequency response is much more flat.
The probability of that outcome seems to be very, very low. And even if there were such an angle, it might not be all that possible to utilise it due to other problems rearing their heads.
 
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Ilkless

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The impedance measurements of the DeVore Orangutan O/96 are much the same as any other multi-driver loudspeaker. Their response will be equalised by tube amplification, which generally has a low damping factor, in the typically expected manner for a speaker of their type. The impedance curve also seems to indicate that there are some unwanted resonances present, which can potentially result in audible colouration of their sound reproduction.

A clear example of a speaker where unquestioning faith in the backstory and unsubstantiated assertions of the designer supersedes fact. Not even an attempt at linearising impedance.
 
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You ask what happened to Paradigm? They were bought (majority control) by an American private equity firm in 2005. Just this year, the founder/chairman and minority partner, Scott Bagby, bought back control of the company. Bagby now owns 100 percent of the company and is CEO. It's Canadian owned again.

I think the made-in-Canada Premier line sounds excellent and is cheaper than the Prestige and Persona lines. Very solid value.
 

watchnerd

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Having played many of my well-known test tracks on everything from Revel, to Vivid, to countless different speaker designs, I hear essentially the same sonic information about the character of the recordings coming through all of them.

Indeed.

I have a particular recording, "Nojima Plays Liszt", by Reference Recordings, that was released in 1988, when I was in college. It's been my go-to piano reference recording since I was in college.

Even in college, on some random Yamaha 8" speakers I got from my girlfriend, playing through a Denon AVR (later upgraded to an Adcom GTP-400 preamp tuner and GFA-535 amp), and sitting on a dorm desk, I could tell it was an amazingly well done recording.

There was *nothing* about those speakers and room that would qualify as high fidelity by modern standards.

And, yet, as you say, the sonic information and character of the recording came through, anyway.

So, in this example:

Low fidelity speakers + high fidelity recording = musical enjoyment

Huh.
 
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tvrgeek

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JBL speakers generally measure(and sound) excellent. Seems like an outdated concept.
Yes, it was their typical practice back in the 70's. L26, L36, L100 and that era. "Jump off the shelf" was a term salesmen used. I have not even seen a JBL for home use in a couple of decades. I thought it was funny pushing the L100 for a home speaker as a rework of their studio monitor. The monitor was excellent at making anything wrong sound worse so the recording engineer could address it, quite the opposite of what I want in my home.
 

MattHooper

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The impedance measurements of the DeVore Orangutan O/96 are much the same as any other multi-driver loudspeaker. Their response will be equalised by tube amplification, which generally has a low damping factor, in the typically expected manner for a speaker of their type. The impedance curve also seems to indicate that there are some unwanted resonances present, which can potentially result in audible colouration of their sound reproduction.

Devore has said he wanted to ensure the speaker was an easy drive for an amplifier, easier than many currently offered, and he had tube amps especially in mind.

John Atkinson concluded in his measurements: "Overall, the DeVore O/96 is one of the easiest speakers for an amplifier to drive that I have encountered. "

So it would seem Devore met his goal.

As for the resonance, perhaps that is a subtle part of the sound that some people actually like. Dunno.
 

MattHooper

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A clear example of a speaker where unquestioning faith in the backstory and unsubstantiated assertions of the designer supersedes fact. Not even an attempt at linearising impedance.

Nice try at a diss.

That Devore's desire to create an easy to drive loudspeaker is "unsubstantiated" and mere "unquestioned faith" is nonsense. Again, John Atkinson measured the Devore and commented:

"Overall, the DeVore O/96 is one of the easiest speakers for an amplifier to drive that I have encountered. "

So stop, please, with your condescending nonsense. Thanks.
 
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