• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Turntables, cartidges, and phono stages

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
WTH....is it tall but shallow?
1573940237571579382587555693982.jpg
15739402791808349341872777593657.jpg


Wedge...
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
My subjective impressions were exactly what I expected (imagine that...), in terms of impact on the sound, and I found none of it specifically objectionable. More listening is in order.
.

I've been playing with a tube phono stage, also not objectionable. But there is a bit of detail loss.

If wonder if DSP tube simulation loses less detail than real tubes?
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
I've been playing with a tube phono stage, also not objectionable. But there is a bit of detail loss.

If wonder if DSP tube simulation loses less detail than real tubes?

Good question.
I felt the same detail loss...
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Huh....

Was that a consumer product?

Or some other use case?

4eaa39ea375900adcf8acc0098c2eb11.jpg


I'm not entirely sure...
They had a 600 series, including tape decks and amplifiers, and I think they were more home oriented than professional, but maybe @restorer-john would know more?
Doesn't look horrible for it's time...
Screenshot_20191116-165353.png
 

digitalfrost

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
1,521
Likes
3,086
Location
Palatinate, Germany
The best analysis (I'm sure most folks are aware of it already) is Graeme Dennes' two papers: a) An Analysis of Six Major Articles on Tonearm Alignment and Optimisation; b) Is the Lofgren 'A' Solution Unique? I found them for download at the vinylengine dot com site.
Thanks that was very interesting. In my own research I also came to the conclusion that Löfgren A is the best alignment. I have a Rega arm, and they come with Stevenson alignment by default. Inner groove distortion was an important topic for me, as I have some vinyl from the 80s where discs are used right until the label.

Note there is a calculator at vinylengine that can graph tracking distortion (you need an account for that). I did that for my arm. The UNI graph is just an approximnation as I haven't found any maths/calculator for that (they probably want to sell their protractors), but Mr. Fermer let it slip that the null points are 63.3mm and 112.5mm so I got close to that with an iterative method.

rb250_lofgren_baerwald_stevenson_uni.png

Inner groove distortion was a problem for me for a long time, I generally found that the move to better needles (Shibata/Audio Technica Fine Line etc...) gave the most improvement. However there is another thing that really fixed this for me: I made my own protractor using Conrad Hoffman's Custom arc template generator. I used Lofgren A, but an inner groove radius according to german DIN standard at 57.5mm.

As you can see from the graph, Lofgren A gives the lowest distortion:

- It doesn't start as high as the others
- In the middle section it doesn't rise as much as Stevenson and is still never higher than at the beginning
- And due to the small inner groove value of 57.5mm, by the time the distortion rises, the vinyl is already at it's end

If you had chosen a bigger inner groove radius, Stevenson might be of advantage, but to me these weird alignments don't really do it.
As I said UNI was approximated, so take that with a grain of salt. If I had to choose, UNI would be 2nd choice. Maybe it's better. I can follow the logic of it all but until there's a free calculator I'm not gonna bother paying money for their custom protractors.

I think inner groove radius plays a much bigger role than people think. Sure modern records often stop very early and come with multiple dics, but when time comes and you have that disc that is used from beginning to the end, the distortion rise at the end doesn't justify the gains IMHO. You see how the distortion just escapes upwards towards the end of the disc.

Another thing to keep in mind. People always want to optimize for the best result under the best circumstances. However, that is not how industrial products are made. They sell you the quality they can most likely guarantee to be consistent. Some products are gonne be better, some are gonne be worse, but what they optimize for is not the best product they can probably make, but the best product they can make under bad circumstances, because that ensures you get most usable products that are "good enough".

What I'm trying to say here. I had to manipulate the calculator at vinylengine in 0.1 increments in both overhang mm and angle ° to get to the UNI graph. I bought a USB microscope (they're really cheap) to optimally align my cartridge

BXy9Z3h.png

and as you can see, that needle is not in the middle. Do I care? No. I arrived at this after a lot of tinkering, pushing the cartridge a little, fiddling with these screws that are not really screws (what the hell were they thinking?)

zJL8yST.jpg


And this was good enough for me. If you really want to find the optimal alignment, you need something that accounts for human error and just mechanical imperfections. Ideally you'd have a measurement disk and a computer programm, so you can run the whole disc through and then it tells you what to adjust. Do that a couple of times until there are no more improvements. I mean at the end of the day we're trying to minimize the distortion sum under a graph. That is a solved problem. While you're at it, it could create a file that you can put into your convolver so that the turntable has perfect output (at least frequency response). Maybe something like this exists.

Until then, Löfgren A with DIN 45547 inner groove for me, easily best bang for the buck.
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Thanks that was very interesting. In my own research I also came to the conclusion that Löfgren A is the best alignment. I have a Rega arm, and they come with Stevenson alignment by default. Inner groove distortion was an important topic for me, as I have some vinyl from the 80s where discs are used right until the label.

Note there is a calculator at vinylengine that can graph tracking distortion (you need an account for that). I did that for my arm. The UNI graph is just an approximnation as I haven't found any maths/calculator for that (they probably want to sell their protractors), but Mr. Fermer let it slip that the null points are 63.3mm and 112.5mm so I got close to that with an iterative method.

View attachment 100991
Inner groove distortion was a problem for me for a long time, I generally found that the move to better needles (Shibata/Audio Technica Fine Line etc...) gave the most improvement. However there is another thing that really fixed this for me: I made my own protractor using Conrad Hoffman's Custom arc template generator. I used Lofgren A, but an inner groove radius according to german DIN standard at 57.5mm.

As you can see from the graph, Lofgren A gives the lowest distortion:

- It doesn't start as high as the others
- In the middle section it doesn't rise as much as Stevenson and is still never higher than at the beginning
- And due to the small inner groove value of 57.5mm, by the time the distortion rises, the vinyl is already at it's end

If you had chosen a bigger inner groove radius, Stevenson might be of advantage, but to me these weird alignments don't really do it.
As I said UNI was approximated, so take that with a grain of salt. If I had to choose, UNI would be 2nd choice. Maybe it's better. I can follow the logic of it all but until there's a free calculator I'm not gonna bother paying money for their custom protractors.

I think inner groove radius plays a much bigger role than people think. Sure modern records often stop very early and come with multiple dics, but when time comes and you have that disc that is used from beginning to the end, the distortion rise at the end doesn't justify the gains IMHO. You see how the distortion just escapes upwards towards the end of the disc.

Another thing to keep in mind. People always want to optimize for the best result under the best circumstances. However, that is not how industrial products are made. They sell you the quality they can most likely guarantee to be consistent. Some products are gonne be better, some are gonne be worse, but what they optimize for is not the best product they can probably make, but the best product they can make under bad circumstances, because that ensures you get most usable products that are "good enough".

What I'm trying to say here. I had to manipulate the calculator at vinylengine in 0.1 increments in both overhang mm and angle ° to get to the UNI graph. I bought a USB microscope (they're really cheap) to optimally align my cartridge

View attachment 100996
and as you can see, that needle is not in the middle. Do I care? No. I arrived at this after a lot of tinkering, pushing the cartridge a little, fiddling with these screws that are not really screws (what the hell were they thinking?)

View attachment 100997

And this was good enough for me. If you really want to find the optimal alignment, you need something that accounts for human error and just mechanical imperfections. Ideally you'd have a measurement disk and a computer programm, so you can run the whole disc through and then it tells you what to adjust. Do that a couple of times until there are no more improvements. I mean at the end of the day we're trying to minimize the distortion sum under a graph. That is a solved problem. While you're at it, it could create a file that you can put into your convolver so that the turntable has perfect output (at least frequency response). Maybe something like this exists.

Until then, Löfgren A with DIN 45547 inner groove for me, easily best bang for the buck.


You're reminding me how much I hate this hobby.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
That's a gateway drug.
And a P-Mount doesn't deal with the reality that any attempt to "fix" inner groove distortion is destined to fail. Though it does make cartridge replacement somewhat less vile.
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
He's demonstrating why I quit vinyl cold turkey.

He's reminding me why my alignments are pretty sloppy these days and why I like the SME slider.

It's just not worth the increase in my blood pressure to fart around to get it as close to perfect as possible when the difference in distortion between 'good enough' and 'really great' alignment is like 0.2% difference in distortion, all while the discs are rarely perfectly eccentric to begin with, leading to unresolvable w&f that doesn't go away with better alignment.
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
And a P-Mount doesn't deal with the reality that any attempt to "fix" inner groove distortion is destined to fail. Though it does make cartridge replacement somewhat less vile.

My fix for IGD is to buy 45 rpm discs that have so little music on each side that you never play inner grooves because half the LP is dead wax.
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,314
Likes
4,427
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
Umm - the Rega arms use 60mm as the inner null distance, at least that's what's indicated on their card protractors.

Of course, domestic audiophiles always seem to know more than the manuacturers it seems, but still...
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Umm - the Rega arms use 60mm as the inner null distance, at least that's what's indicated on their card protractors.

Of course, domestic audiophiles always seem to know more than the manuacturers it seems, but still...

Rega is just showing once again that the only standards they care about are the ones created by them.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
My fix for IGD is to buy 45 rpm discs that have so little music on each side you never play inner grooves because half the LP is dead wax.
Doesn't make IGD go away, it cuts it back but there's still enough to be audible. It doesn't stick out like the end of a one-disc LP of Beethoven's 9th, but IGD is totally absent on a MP3 rip. And, as you noted, eccentric discs are altogether too common. My fix was dumping every single LP in my "collection". Sayonara , Shaded Dogs. Goodbye, grey-label Capitols.
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Doesn't make IGD go away, it cuts it back but there's still enough to be audible. It doesn't stick out like the end of a one-disc LP of Beethoven's 9th, but IGD is totally absent on a MP3 rip. And, as you noted, eccentric discs are altogether too common. My fix was dumping every single LP in my "collection". Sayonara , Shaded Dogs. Goodbye, grey-label Capitols.

You're ruining the 45 rpm LP joke.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
My fix for IGD is to buy 45 rpm discs that have so little music on each side that you never play inner grooves because half the LP is dead wax.
PS: One of my best sounding LPs was Steve Hoffman's re-mastering of the Billy Strayhorn re-write of 'The Nutcracker Suite' for the Duke Ellington Orchestra. About 15 minutes a side, 2 1/2 inches of deadwax, really quiet vinyl, centered correctly. $33.00. The CD rip sounds as good. Think that was $3 from Rasputin's used bin.
 

digitalfrost

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
1,521
Likes
3,086
Location
Palatinate, Germany
That's a gateway drug.
Certainly was for me. I started out with my parents turntable, P-mount. And I remembered how that sounded from my childhood. So I put a Shure M92E into it, and it was already a lot better. Then I got a JICO SAS needle, wow what an improvement. That go me into the needle game. Ended up buying a new turntable and putting an Audio Technica Nude Square Shank into it. I will never go back to cheaper needles. It is a huge improvement, whatever the rest. I mean, it made a huge difference to me in a turntable that was probably worth 20$ at the time. Needles are worth the money.

Umm - the Rega arms use 60mm as the inner null distance, at least that's what's indicated on their card protractors.

Of course, domestic audiophiles always seem to know more than the manuacturers it seems, but still...
Maybe that's right but I don't see how that goes against my argument.
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,408
Location
Seattle Area, USA
Certainly was for me. I started out with my parents turntable, P-mount. And I remembered how that sounded from my childhood. So I put a Shure M92E into it, and it was already a lot better. Then I got a JICO SAS needle, wow what an improvement. That go me into the needle game. Ended up buying a new turntable and putting an Audio Technica Nude Square Shank into it. I will never go back to cheaper needles. It is a huge improvement, whatever the rest. I mean, it made a huge difference to me in a turntable that was probably worth 20$ at the time. Needles are worth the money.

Yes, advanced styli are worth the money. And they're not necessarily expensive these days.

Now the DL-103 lovers will come and tell us how conicals are just as good.
 
Top Bottom