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Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

Sancus

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Is it possible to do it any time soon? I wonder how KH80 stands against Genelec 8030C. I am trying to choose between those two and distortion data would be helpful :D.

Neumann publishes this data, and given their interactions with Amir there's every reason to believe it's highly accurate.

Maximum SPL at 1m (Blue: 3% THD, Green: 1% THD )
14-MAXSPL-all-Combined_524.jpg
The KH80 reaches 1% THD at around 82-83dB or less below 100hz, yet the 8030C remains below 1% THD at 86dB SPL in the same region. So there's no question that the 8030C has less distortion in bass than the KH80.

Exactly how much the difference is difficult to be sure. Distortion is non-linear, Genelec does not publish a similar chart, and we only have 86dB and 96dB data points from Amir's test which are limited compared to the above type of chart.
 

thewas

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I will probably use subwoofer to care about bass range. I still would like to see distortion measurement. It is always better to see than to speculate right ?
Sure, but having listened at both the KH80 limitations in the bass SPL (which you can read also in Amirs and other reviews) are quite obvious in direct comparison.
 

Pawelekdabek

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(...)and we only have 86dB and 96dB data points from Amir's test which are limited compared to the above type of chart.
It is limited but still can be used to compare both right? Amirm measurements are reference for us. I don't quite understand why don't you want to see it measured.
 

Sancus

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It is limited but still can be used to compare both right? Amirm measurements are reference for us. I don't quite understand why don't you want to see it measured.

? Where did I say in my post I don't want to see it measured? The purpose of my post was to point out there is already sufficient information to know that the 8030C has significantly more bass headroom/less distortion than the KH80. So if that's what you want to know, well you already do.

If Amir feels like taking the extra time and energy to do KH80 distortion measurements that's totally up to him. Since you're asking, personally I'd like to see a more comprehensive max SPL/distortion test battery before redoing old reviews. Which I imagine will happen eventually given that thread.
 

infinitesymphony

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It stands to reason that you'll gain SPL with any speaker if you add a subwoofer and cross it over. In that sense unless you like ultra loud SPLs (where you'll need larger speakers anyway), either speaker should be great.
 

Pawelekdabek

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Hmmm, KH120 is not much bigger than 8030C and distortion data from neumann.com looks better, so it should be better choice right? It is only 50E more expensive. As for the size. I have 1.30m long desk and I'm kinda worried the distance between monitors would be too short. What do you guys think?

Second image blue = 1% red = 3%.
 

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infinitesymphony

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Hmmm, KH120 is not much bigger than 8030C and distortion data from neumann.com looks better, so it should be better choice right? It is only 50E more expensive. As for the size. I have 1.30m long desk and I'm kinda worried the distance between monitors would be too short. What do you guys think?

Second image blue = 1% red = 3%.
The KH120 and 8030C should be very comparable speakers. They aren't huge, but YMMV in terms of desk comfort.

jxcnrzurtf6rp17qypr9.jpg
 

Tsuchi

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Per Neumann's manual the minimum listening distance for the KH120 is 0.75m. You should be fine.

My pair was setup at about 0.76m or 2.5 ft. It's not ideal but I made it work well with my smaller room and some added acoustic treatment.
 

Pearljam5000

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I had the KH120 and thinking of getting the 8030C instead.
I just liked how the Genelecs sounded more( more 3D, less "dark" sounding, better tonality)
Plus class-D amps, plus The auto shut off.
 

Tsuchi

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I had the KH120 and thinking of getting the 8030C instead.
I just liked how the Genelecs sounded more( more 3D, less "dark" sounding, better tonality)
Plus class-D amps, plus The auto shut off.

Ditto... and more veiled sound. I remember someone on Gearslutz saying they have a slight “bathtub” trait to them, that’s the best way I can describe it.

KH120 isn’t a bad speaker. It’s comes down to what sound signature you like. They lend themselves well to jazz and classical music.
 

Pawelekdabek

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I think I will just order both pairs and return the one I will like less. But if they really sound dark that's a shame. I was so happy that I've found small speaker with low distortion and flat freqeuncy response...
 

infinitesymphony

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KH120 are front-ported, 8030C are rear-ported. Even if both speakers measure near flat anechoically, you may encounter different frequency responses depending on room placement, treatment, and distance from the rear wall. Directivity will also be slightly different due to the different waveguides.

When the KH120 receives a review here, we'll have an apples-to-apples comparison.
 
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Tsuchi

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They really are stellar speakers. The potential drawbacks mentioned don't dramatically effect the sound, just worth noting when you're comparing at that price. If you aren't already aware there are EQ shelving options for lows, mids, and highs as well. They'll come with an excellent guide on how to set them up in your room including what to set the EQ at based on position and such.
 

BYRTT

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How are they dark sounding if their freq response is ruller flat?
Being on same axis as Amir measure reason can be distance :) the closer nearfield you are the higher SPL (more clear) will on axis and listening window curves shine through relative to PIR and sound power curves and note spinorama curves reflect 2 meter distance, the more farfield you get or maybe also the more off axis then sound power and PIR curves take over relative to on axis and listening window curves, over in 8030C thread richard12511 showed how KH 80 is directive from 1000Hz and up where 8030C go constant directive (wider dispersion) around 3000Hz area.
Study phenomens below from 100Hz to 1200Hz KH 80 has hotter PIR and sound power curve than ideals and above that area it looks ideal directivity index and note you can see it folowing directivity index curve verse ideal but also in the upper curves verse ideals and also note its because KH 80 is voiced or priotized for flat on axis near field curve so if you listen farfield and off axis sound power and PIR will take over and not shure it absolut or directly will sound dark but it will if you A/B to 8030C farfield in same room setup, now study 8030C who's listening window curve is voiced close the same as directivity index curve, that is look how listening window curve is relative to zero dB line verse directivity index curve relative its flat ideal, that voicing priotize smooth sound power, and also the wider dispersion 3000Hz up can be seen in off axis horizontals 20º & 30º patterns verse KH 80..
Pawelekdabek_power response_2.png


So in farfield to get KH 80 sound less dark or get it voiced close to 8030C in sound power see below EQ for low end should help alot, and if not enough then toe them in or out and add a high shelf 3000Hz +0,5-3dB that mimic where 8030C go constant directive..
Pawelekdabek_power-response_x1x1_800mS.gif
 
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napilopez

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How are they dark sounding if their freq response is ruller flat?

I did not at all get a semblance of "darkness" from the KH120s when I heard them briefly lol.

KH120 are front-ported, 8030C are rear-ported. Even if both speakers measure near flat anechoically, you may encounter different frequency responses depending on room placement, treatment, and distance from the rear wall. Directivity will also be slightly different due to the different waveguides.

When the KH120 receives a review here, we'll have an apples-to-apples comparison.

This, though it's worth mentioning that Neumann themselves posted a spin of the KH120 measured at Klippel HQ a while back. It should be roughly comparable to Amir's results, even if the mics are calibrated a little differently.

1608322054357.png


1608322073724.png


Comparing the KH120 (red) to Amir's measurements of the 8030C(blue), we have:

KH120 vs 8030C.png


The genelecs appear to have a bit more energy in the mids and presence regions. This alone might position the Neumanns as being a bit darker relative to the genelecs.You might think such small differences may not be audible, but I'm quite sure they would be in direct comparisons.

Potential differences can also become exacerbated depending on the interaction of vertical lobing with your room/setup as well. The KH120 might have slightly worse vertical lobing, but it's hard to tell from the image neumann posted).

I'm a broken record, but if there are audible differences with speakers that are otherwise well designed, they are likely explained by frequency response and directivity. But these are both excellent speakers and I highly doubt that the tiniest EQ couldn't largely make up for the differences between the two. Frankly, I'd just pick whichever you thought was prettiest and call it a day. =]
 

Pearljam5000

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I know it's controversial but i do think that the metal dome tweeter of the 8030C has an impact on the sound vs the KH120 titanium / fabric tweeter
 
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