My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

[raistlin65]

My point is that there's nothing wrong with just going with the anecdotes when that's the closest thing to real data which exists.

Sure there is. Incorporating a cognitive bias into a decision is not a good idea.

One would be better off to ignore it, rather than have it weigh in a purchase decision where there are other factors to consider, where other data is more reliable.

 

[Wes]

but his point is a situation where there is no better data

 

[Helicopter]

Won't work with LG. Warranty looks fine........until you try and use it.

I agree LG warranty is super misleading. Giant 10 year warranty sticker. Appliance failed after a year... no warranty. They will get in trouble because they are no where close to meeting expectations of a reasonable consumer.

 

[EJ3]

My old 95 Maxima manual went 19 years on one headlight bulb, batteries, and tires.

I'd still have it but it got smushed.

Now I have a high-ish tech 2019 Camry and am holding my breath.

The newest, most expensive vehicle I have is a 2012 maximally optioned Lexus ES350 (bought new) that currently has 15,000 (yes 15K) miles on it. I have never liked it's ride (I do like the Mark Levison/not really Mark Levinson stereo, as that, in my mind is the best thing about the car). But I decided to spend $6000 or so to import it from Guam to James Island, SC USA. Because it has never given any problems in the always summer climate of Guam. It's on it's second set of tires (at six years old, even the best tires start throwing chunks of tread off in Guam) and it's third battery (a wet acid battery that gets more than three years there is an anomaly waiting to die at the most inopportune time possible). Nothing has ever not functioned.
This is a car that my wife bought for herself. The other alternative was to bring her 2007 Honda Fit (whose sportier ride (my mods) I like way better. It has 50+K but and has never had an issue but is starting to get some body rust. It is being sold in Guam before my wife comes here. I hope that bringing the Lexus is the right decision for the long term. It will be a lot easier here for me to "fix" what I perceive as ride issues. Hopefully it won't mind the piling up of miles that it will start doing & stay reliable. I recently sold my 72 Mustang 351C AUTO with 300K miles that was like an anvil in reliability. Over the years it had received a fuel system from & including the fuel tank to & including the carburetor, an electronic ignition and normal things like tires, brakes, etc. Maintenance was done on the heavy duty use schedule according to the Ford service manual and synthetic lubes were used in the engine, transmission, rear end and wheel bearing grease after they became available. That's it. If the Lexus will do that...

 

[raistlin65]

but his point is a situation where there is no better data

The availability heuristic is a cognitive bias.

 

[restorer-john]

In my posts about LG I'm not claiming any level of reliability or lack thereof. Merely that their warranty is deceptive and dishonest.

My Nikon D90 (70000 exposures on the shutter mechanism since 2011, all mine) 2008 ($850) with the excellent Nikon AF 180/f2.8 still works fine. (The 180 is about 30 years old and it was $900 brand new in 1987)

I have three Nikon D70s and they are all perfectly fine. All the original batteries still power the units for months and months even when left on (standby).

Apart from removing that wretched soft touch rubber/latex grip off the plastic, they need nothing.

1987 Canon first series EOS lenses are all good too on the Canons.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have three Nikon D70s and they are all perfectly fine. All the original batteries still power the units for months and months even when left on (standby).

Apart from removing that wretched soft touch rubber/latex grip off the plastic, they need nothing.

1987 Canon first series EOS lenses are all good too on the Canons.

I'd had Nikons since the Nikon 990 in digital. Had a D50 crap out at only 21 k shots. Happened upon a deal on a Canon, and have one with lots of shots on it now. Was much happier with the Canon. Just a matter of ergnomics and menu structure. Color seems easier to be pleasing on the Canon as well though the Nikon is more accurate by a smidgen.

Of course when I give up on this DSLR I'll go with one of the newer mirrorless cameras.

 

[restorer-john]

Back to HiFi, I can say without any shadow of a doubt that classic HiFi was, and is, infinitely more reliable than the SMD/PbFree low cost stuff that has been churned out for the last few decades from developing countries.

I know through hole is dead for much of electronics manufacture, but the irony is, it will outlast everything that comes after it.

Where everything these days uses a micro to run everything, gear of the past used dedicated circuit elements for protection. Not passing the buck to the micro to monitor via a series of A/D lines and code.

I look at a 2 channel failed stereo integrated amplifier and it needs repair, then factory firmware, console/control software and a dedicated interface. Ridiculous, and offers no performance advantages whatsoever.

Bulletproof physical input switches and relays were replaced by a one-size fits all, AVR input controller IC which is fragile in terms of surges/spikes.

I have zero interest in owning (other than buying a few thing for curiosity's sake- not actual use) inexpensive Chinese audio. I don't call it high fidelity, because the term also encompasses long term reliabiliy, build quality, pride of ownership, ease of use, ergonomics in design and of course high technical performance.

I've also got enough real HiFi to last many lifetimes. For people who are starting out, with modest budgets, they may get into the game, but sooner or later they will do what our member further back in the thread did, and just get rid of the cheap stuff and buy what he really wanted in the first place: the Benchmark gear.

 

[restorer-john]

Was much happier with the Canon. Just a matter of ergnomics and menu structure. Color seems easier to be pleasing on the Canon as well though the Nikon is more accurate by a smidgen.

I couldn't decide on Canon or Nikon initially, so went with a 40D (back in the day) as my orignal EOS lenses from '87 worked perfectly on it. Was happy until a girl I dated showed me her Nikon and let me play with it for a bit.

I was hooked so I bought a 2nd hand D70s just for fun at a bargain price with three lenses and the SB-600 flash. Wow, Nikon flash was in a whole other league to Canon. And my son was just a 3yo and I could just take pictures of the little guy anywhere I took him. (not now he's 13!) The skin tone under flash was just perfect. The Canons just couldn't produce realistic skin tone under flash, no matter what I did. I blamed my lack of photographic skills.

This was a Nikon D60 with SB-400 flash outside in bright sun climbing up a pandanus, 9 years ago:

This was a Nikon D-70s with SB-600 flash outside, on a cloudy day. James was up above me on a rope bridge 9 years ago:

Both straight out of each camera- resized for ASR of course.

The rest is history, but I think there's at least 14 DSLR bodies, with maybe 8 Nikons and the rest Canon in the camera cupboard...

 

[M00ndancer]

Apart from removing that wretched soft touch rubber/latex grip off the plastic, they need nothing.

With the D90, after 2 years, the rubber part on the back would come loose due to the glue letting go. Couldn't withstand the sweat from human hands. (known problem, if I rememeber correctly. Some super-glue cured that. )

 

[StefaanE]

The availability heuristic is a cognitive bias.

Determining what apparently successful members of the community do and imitating them, is not a bad strategy, from the viewpoint of surviving and thriving...

 

[M00ndancer]

Determining what apparently successful members of the community do and imitating them, is not a bad strategy, from the viewpoint of surviving and thriving...

I have absolute proof, I have two kids. My genes have multiplied! (I just did what every body else was doing and nine months later it was a total success)

 

[somebodyelse]

Edit: the toaster from red dwarf is closer than we fear.

Would it have been better or worse if it would only use JMC branded bread products?

 

[raistlin65]

Determining what apparently successful members of the community do and imitating them, is not a bad strategy, from the viewpoint of surviving and thriving...

Zeos and other subjectivist YouTubers thank you for your support!

 

[Mariner9]

Ars Technica piece on the right to repair - seems like this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[anmpr1]

Back to HiFi, I can say without any shadow of a doubt that classic HiFi was, and is, infinitely more reliable than the SMD/PbFree low cost stuff that has been churned out for the last few decades from developing countries.

For people who are starting out, with modest budgets, they may get into the game, but sooner or later they will do what our member further back in the thread did, and just get rid of the cheap stuff and buy what he really wanted in the first place: the Benchmark gear.

I have three set ups. Two Dyna Mk IV and PAS (kits with upgraded boards) from the early '60s--sixty years ago. A Yamaha integrated amp from the late '80s. Works fine (but the motorized remote selector is flaky). And Benchmark preamp/DAC/amp.

My guess is that when I'm dead and long gone, the Dyna will still be supported by hobbyists, and will still be functional. The Benchmark might still work, but by then there will be a DAC-6 so no one will want it. The Yamaha? Not sure about that one! Hopefully some kid will buy it at a second hand store and get some use out of it.

 

[Wes]

I agree LG warranty is super misleading. Giant 10 year warranty sticker. Appliance failed after a year... no warranty. They will get in trouble because they are no where close to meeting expectations of a reasonable consumer.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-to-pay-au160000-for-misleading-two-consumers/

 

[JeffS7444]

Even if you incorporate the best, longest-lasting materials and construction techniques in a product, it's all for naught if no one wants the things anymore: People get bored and buy newer, shinier toys because they feel they've worked hard and deserve a treat. I imagine that many of the world's closets and self-storage units are filled with older gadgets which the owner can't bear to "waste" but won't actually use again in any meaningful way.

 

[EJ3]

Even if you incorporate the best, longest-lasting materials and construction techniques in a product, it's all for naught if no one wants the things anymore: People get bored and buy newer, shinier toys because they feel they've worked hard and deserve a treat. I imagine that many of the world's closets and self-storage units are filled with older gadgets which the owner can't bear to "waste" but won't actually use again in any meaningful way.

I have also seen that happen with old cars (they refuse to sell it, & it just sits there until it is impossible to bring it back into shape.

 

[StefaanE]

Even if you incorporate the best, longest-lasting materials and construction techniques in a product, it's all for naught if no one wants the things anymore: People get bored and buy newer, shinier toys because they feel they've worked hard and deserve a treat. I imagine that many of the world's closets and self-storage units are filled with older gadgets which the owner can't bear to "waste" but won't actually use again in any meaningful way.

Yeah, that’s me. On my desk is a Sun Blade 2000 (the “20 years Sun model”), which I haven’t switched on in ages; on top of a cupboard are a Cromemco C-10 and another Sun workstation, an Ultra 1/167 that’s no longer functional. I also have an old Ethernet hub in my mini-museum.
My wife doesn’t get the “holding on to things that you don’t use”, and due to space constraints I have thrown lots of old computers away. Still, somewhere, I wish I had kept my KIM-1, TRS-80, Beehive Superbee terminal and the nearly full collections of Byte Magazine, Dr Dobb’s Journal and Creative Computing.