My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

[Martin]

Well since this is now an appliance discussion, I'll just say to never buy whirlpool refrigerators

Nothing but problems with ours

Ditto for KitchenAid, another Whirlpool brand. Ours was repaired repeatedly and still never worked right. Absolute junk.

Our LG has been flawless. Funny what was once a cheapo Korean brand (Goldstar) has completely taken over the appliance market.

Martin

 

[anmpr1]

All a company like Topping would need to do is open a small warehousing and repair facility in the USA. I don't think it would be prohibitively expensive for them to do so. A small building in an inexpensive industrial area in some small town and a couple of electronics technicians and they're good to go. The other benefit would be faster shipping to distributors and direct customers within the US. This has me thinking...

I think you are probably right about that being prohibitively expensive. They do that and the price of the unit rises. One reason items made in the US cost more is that labor is more expensive, and it's not cheap to satisfy all the business regulations. Workman's comp, Social Security, insurance plans, 401K plans, sick leave, state, local and Fed taxes. For what Topping does, it has to be cheaper just to send a customer a new unit and have them chunk the old one.

Perhaps an arrangement with an established service center might be possible. A 'warranty station' as it were. Using existing techs on an as needed basis.

The best 'solution' would be for an outfit like the Full of Schitt Guys to get serious about making inexpensive SOA products. Change their name to something that people won't be embarrassed to own, and license Topping designs. Or design it themselves. They have that ability if they wanted to do it. Mike Moffat has the background. He could to it.

 

[Martin]

The best 'solution' would be for an outfit like the Full of Schitt Guys to get serious about making inexpensive SOA products. Change their name to something that people won't be embarrassed to own, and license Topping designs. Or design it themselves. They have that ability if they wanted to do it. Mike Moffat has the background. He could to it.

If they put a well measuring DAC and balanced headphone amp in their Freya+ I’d be all over it. They don’t even need to change their name.

Martin

 

[raif71]

I cycle through my desktop stacks and mobile dac-amp/daps. Rather getting 1 or 2 "good" units, I'd rather buy multiple cheap gears then every few weeks I bring them out of their boxes for usage and put what I currently used in their current boxes. For example, now I already own a50s/d50s, l30/e30, ifi zen stack, throw in an atom, d10,d10s ... you get the idea. I feel refresh when I unbox them all over again, listening to them and I don't use them more than 2 hours at a time each day, shutting them off when not in used. Hopefully by doing this, I can extend all my gears' lifetime.

 

[Tks]

RME ADI-2 DAC?

It also suffers from failing encoders tbh. I'm just too lazy to get mine replaced.

I can't understand why it's so hard for companies to make volume control that works/lasts.

Whoever came up with the idea of using OLED should be fired.

If you use your gear for more than 4-6 hours everyday they will definitely burn in. And most people forget to turn things off (specially with Class D amps).

As should every IEM maker that makes a round port/tips that are rounded, even though our ears have a more ovular entrance.

 

[JW001]

Perhaps I was lucky so far, but over the last 15 or so years none of my consumer electronics has ever failed. My 52'' Samsung LCD 650 Series is 12 years old and shows no signs of aging. My Sony STR-DG600 AVR, bought in 2008, serves as an FM radio in the living room. I still use a 10 years old HP desktop running Windows Vista, and gave away several laptops after getting new ones. (OK, I didn't try the cassette Sony Walkman laying in the closet, so not sure if it's still working...) This is in contrast to electromechanical appliances and devices - water heaters, washers, pool pumps, controllers, etc. etc., where I spent time and money resuscitating them and ultimately throwing away and buying new ones.

I think that modern DACs, low power and based on delta-sigma ICs with relaxed tolerances for external components, will age gracefully, whether they are made in Asia, North America or Europe. My Topping D30 is 2 years old and running without problems.

 

[Scottwhit]

I considered the RME ADI2 DAC but I need a set of balanced inputs for my phono preamp. I’d love a SOTA measuring single box solution.

I have yet to find one with everything I want: balanced inputs, balanced and SE outputs, a DAC and a headphone amp preferably with balanced output.

Martin

Bel Canto DAC 2.7 checks most of your boxes, except for the balanced input. It only has 1 unbalanced input.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Samsung dishwasher stopped after a year and two months. Gave us an 'error code' on the panel. You know things have gotten crazy when your dishwasher gives you an error code. Easier and quicker to buy a new model and have it delivered and installed next day. Checkout girl asks if I want to buy the 'extended' warranty. I always say no. I'll just get a new one. Sad but that's the way it is.

Purchase from local appliance dealer. They employ repairmen. I have owned Speed Queen washer and dryer for 14 years. 3 repairs out of warranty. Repaired within 2 days for less than $150 each time. Fridge repaired next day for $125. Or buy from big box stores and wait and wait for the "independent" repairman. I think you can find local dealers even in metropolitan areas. My experience is in small city.

 

[Helicopter]

Shipping stuff back to China from the US sucks because it costs $30 to ship an 8 ounce package, it takes 3 weeks, and the tracking disappears in China. At least that was my experience. Since it cost $500 to get my tube amp her from China, it was basically a one way trip no matter what. When it had a bad socket, I had to go through a 30 email conversation to prove it was bad, and they sent me the part to install myself. Not the company's fault completely. It is just the high cost of shipping, especially if you want to ship something back. If you get something big and heavy, it is probably a one-way trip, even if you spend a couple grand and it has a manufacturing defect.

I will still buy stuff from China, but I am willing to pay more for something from the US, especially if it is made here, or if it is a device prone to failure.

As for those OLED displays, good thing most of my recent electronics purchases are Schiit then. I am going to avoid those displays from now on. Thanks for the warning.

Appliances, I am not sure there is a good way to know they will last. I either fix them myself or replace them. I did both with the fridge, and now I have an extra one that is pretty nice in perfect time for $700 COVID Costco trips.

 

[Martin]

Our LG dryer died today. It’ll cost $600 to repair it. Finding a new similarly featured LG dryer to stack on our LG washer is impossible. The earliest delivery is in late January. The stores are saying appliances are scarce right now because of COVID.

I bit the bullet and got a new Samsung set to be delivered and installed this Saturday for just under $2000.

I’m thinking the $318 they’re asking for 5-year extended warranties might be a good idea. I know they’re cash in the stores pocket but with the cost and reliability of these things maybe the tables have turned.

Martin

 

[dougi]

This is the thing that does discourage me from considering expensive active speakers. Getting bricked when something in the active part fails. I had my RRP A$5000 Velodyne DD10+ sub fail after 4 years. Luckily there was a service agent in my new city but the only option was to replace the amp board at a A$1500 expense. Replacing it with something equivalent would have cost double I guess. Still working so far and a niggling problem it always had was fixed in the new board! (very deaf in auto-turn-on, I used to have to have a MP3 player plugged into the RCA input and would play it some bass tones to wake it up).

 

[JohnYang1997]

There are always some small issues(some times big) in a product. And it should be acknowledged and improved over time. Topping merely started to got popular in 2018 with products like D50 and DX7. So I would expect some issues to happen.

On the other hand, working closely to distributors is the most important part of selling overseas. They have their undercut (a lot in a sense) but we should expect them to have best customer services. Apos almost loses money selling L30 due to the heavy transformer just to get what I wanted (the low price that's competitive to local products from schiit and jds).

In a sense, we look at our competitors, better quality ones. We are getting better and better. People are complaining about the price of pre90. But look around our competition and the cost of the product, there's almost no competition and no way to reduce price low enough to be meaningful. And it's also because we don't want our products to be disposable hot garbage after use.

 

[brimble]

This is how JBL tests their speakers for durability and one of the reasons I own JBL:

(pity that's not audio equipment, although it does have a small speaker!)

 

[witchdoctor]

(pity that's not audio equipment, although it does have a small speaker!)

I love it,now that is durability! I love the names for these tests

 

[brimble]

I love it,now that is durability! I love the names for these tests

I own this camera, and it has many failings compared to a more modern camera ... but every time I think that, I remember that it cost about $1,000 and will last for several decades, whereas a more modern camera would cost in the same ballpark and last for just a few years. So it's effectively very cheap. And then I'm happy!

 

[trl]

@brimble, @witchdoctor nothing compares with an AKG SM58 mic:

.

 

[Thomas savage]

Things go wrong , even expensive things and can be difficult or not economical to repair. It seems not to be a design consideration in the way it used to be . Thats our fault as those things tend to follow consumer choice .

When I was younger my dad used to fix, to varying degrees of success , everything . He would often moan about shite American manufacturing and large American corporations swallowing up British companies . ..

Indeed I took a Kell amp and CDP to be repaired by a well respected local engineer and he mentioned how difficult it was due to being ' over engineered to the point of insanity ' , badly designed and told me I should of kept my British designed and made Quad 606 .

I can't remember ever referring to audio products made in any country using a term like ' ChiFi '. AmeriFi anyone ? Heavy lumps of crap made by evil dumb corporations. ' AmeriCars ' big lumps of gas guzzling crap that can't corner ...

It would be great if we could leave this term ' ChiFi ' behind, especially when its inferred meaning is clearly derogatory.

 

[StefaanE]

Our LG dryer died today. It’ll cost $600 to repair it. Finding a new similarly featured LG dryer to stack on our LG washer is impossible. The earliest delivery is in late January. The stores are saying appliances are scarce right now because of COVID.

I bit the bullet and got a new Samsung set to be delivered and installed this Saturday for just under $2000.

I’m thinking the $318 they’re asking for 5-year extended warranties might be a good idea. I know they’re cash in the stores pocket but with the cost and reliability of these things maybe the tables have turned.

Man, your appliance prices are high. The most expensive dryer I can find is a Miele with heat-pump for €2399 delivered and installed, the cheapest a Beko with evacuation for €299. The Samsung DV90T6 goes for €949, and the DV81M6 is €799. Always with delivery and installation. When looking at audio equipment, more often than not it’s € for $ or worse.

 

[solderdude]

Topping (and likely other ChiFi components) are, in essence, disposable products. I refuse to buy any more disposable components, no matter how well they measure.

Very true, has been this way with most cheap electronics for ages. The main reason I left the A/V repair business 2 decades ago.
Still I bought the E30... at least it has a relatively 'trustworthy' alarm clock LED display.

displays, SMPS, switches, potmeters, relays nearly all mechanical components develop faults sooner or later. Expensive devices usually still get fixed, cheapies are replaced.
That's why vintage stuff is popular.. the switches, potmeters, relays etc often can be replaced or even repaired/cleaned and back in those days audio was also already a 'solved' issue (for the more expensive gear).

Perhaps consider changing the title to My Problem With Cheap Equipment

 

[Cortes]

Very true, has been this way with most cheap electronics for ages. The main reason I left the A/V repair business 2 decades ago.
Still I bought the E30... at least it has a relatively 'trustworthy' alarm clock LED display.

displays, SMPS, switches, potmeters, relays nearly all mechanical components develop faults sooner or later. Expensive devices usually still get fixed, cheapies are replaced.
That's why vintage stuff is popular.. the switches, potmeters, relays etc often can be replaced or even repaired/cleaned and back in those days audio was also already a 'solved' issue (for the more expensive gear).

Perhaps consider changing the title to My Problem With Cheap Equipment[/QUOTE]

Nop!, hifi equipement, even what you call 'cheap', is darn expensive. Following with the (not very good) dishwasher comparisons of this thread, you can buy for the price of a D90 a very good washing machine.

I agree that HiFi is a business that does not allow for a scale economy and good QC, but on their favor the electronics has not moving parts and there is no reason to fail.

IME:
- AMR DP-777 Kaput. Under warranty stopped working the USB card that they replaced, a few months after warranty went kaput the motherboard. They asked me $1000 to get it replaced and I showed them one of the fingers of my hand.

-Wadia 121: it still works, only that every channel has independent life.

For electronics, probably the best is to go with cheap stuff assuming it will break, or for EU/US quality brands that have resale value. Not many, TBH.