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Why do passive speakers still exist?

Zvu

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What's the difference between a Genelec 8351B and a Kii Three? They're both about the same, and they put everything in the same cabinet

That Genelec isn't in the same league with Kii.

Kii Three is louder and has cardioid pattern down to low frequencies and will interact much less and benign with listening enviroment.

It is also better looking - but that's just my opinion.
 
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richard12511

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What's the difference between a Genelec 8351B and a Kii Three? They're both about the same, and they put everything in the same cabinet

Having compared the two, I thought the Kii had much better bass, though I preferred the 8C bass even more. For a pure 2.0 channel system, I think the Kii is a considerably better speaker. For someone using multiple subwoofers, like me, the 8351 is (imo) the superior speaker, as I thought it did mids and highs better. The 8351 also imaged better, likely due to the more advanced point source design.

I also think the 8351 is a much better looking speaker :).

I know you’re looking mostly for a 2.0 system(why you were considering the 8361 over the 9351). How much would it cost to have the Kii or D&D shipped to you? It might be worth it. The 8C is definitely the best stereo I’ve heard with no subs. It sounded like there were multiple subwoofers in the room:oops:!
 
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richard12511

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That Genelec isn't in the same league with Kii.

Kii Three is louder and has cardioid pattern down to low frequencies and will interact much less and benign with listening enviroment.

It is also better looking - but that's just my opinion.

Ha! Saw this after I replied to Pearljam. I guess that shows the nature of subjective opinions :D.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Having compared the two, I thought the Kii had much better bass, though I preferred the 8C bass even more. For a pure 2.0 channel system, I think the Kii is a considerably better speaker. For someone using multiple subwoofers, like me, the 8351 is the superior speaker, as I thought it did mids and highs better. The 8351 also imaged better, like due to the point source design.

I also think the 8351 is a much better looking speaker :).

I know you’re looking mostly for a 2.0 system(why you were considering the 8361 over the 9351). How much would it cost to have the Kii or D&D shipped to you? It might be worth it. The 8C is definitely the best stereo I’ve heard with no subs. It sounded like there were multiple subwoofers in the room:oops:!
So you're basically saying the 8351B is better at everything than the Kii Three and 8C except the bass?
Fine by me especially since 8631A has more bass so the gap should be closer.
I actually found a dealer in my country and Kii Three and 8C cost 50% more than the Genelecs.
Another thing is..again, reliability :)
Kii and D&D are young companies and i just can't bet this kind of money on unproven products (obviously it's not their fault, but still)
 

richard12511

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So you're basically saying the 8351B is better at everything than the Kii Three and 8C except the bass?

No. I'm saying I preferred those other things on the 8351B. Big difference ;). I'm looking forward to Erin's review of the 8C, as then we should have a much better idea of how the two compare, objectively. In terms of my individual preference, the mid/hi/imaging advantage in favor of the Genelec was much smaller than the bass advantage of the of the Kii and D&D.

Fine by me especially since 8631A has more bass so the gap should be closer.
I actually found a dealer in my country and Kii Three and 8C cost 50% more than the Genelecs.
Another thing is..again, reliability :)
Kii and D&D are young companies and i just can't bet this kind of money on unproven products (obviously it's not their fault, but still)

Maybe the 8361A closes some of the bass gap, as I didn't hear it, and can't compare. I'm a bit skeptical of that, though. The bass difference I heard was pretty large.

Reliability is a factor if you're someone who buys once and never changes speakers. D&D and Kii are both new, so their longevity is kinda unknown right now. For someone like me who likes to mix it up and have multiple speakers at a time to compare, reliability is less important(though I expect my Genelecs to be good for 30+ years), though I still do consider it.
 
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Pearljam5000

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No. I'm saying I preferred those other things on the 8351B. Big difference ;). I'm looking forward to Erin's review of the 8C, as then we should have a much better idea of how the two compare, objectively. In terms of my individual preference, the mid/hi/imaging advantage in favor of the Genelec was much smaller than the bass advantage of the of the Kii and D&D.



Maybe the 8361A closes some of the bass gap, as I didn't hear it, and can't compare. I'm a bit skeptical of that, though. The bass difference I heard was pretty large.

Reliability is a factor if you're someone who buys once and never changes speakers. D&D and Kii are both new, so their longevity is kinda unknown right now. For someone like me who likes to mix it up and have multiple speakers at a time to compare, reliability is less important(though I expect my Genelecs to be good for 30+ years), though I still do consider it.
There's actually someone on another forum that sold his 8C and bought the the 8361A and said it's a lot better.
Also, from what I've read the 8C is more "musical" than the 8361A and i actually like the clinical/analytical sound of the Genelec more, plus i like the aluminum cabinet a lot more :)
 

Purité Audio

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And on the same thread a poster who sold his 8351B and subs and kept the 8Cs, I would listen to both in the same room, that is what I do here.
Keith
 

Frank Dernie

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On reflection the problem for me isn't active v passive, I have had both for decades, but DSP v analogue active.
It is clear to me from every demo I have had that DSP active offers benefits but my objection is less to reliability and more to obsolescence, either accidental or deliberate.
My Meridian M33s still work fine after 20 years.
My Devialet Phantoms work fine after 5 years BUT they are already hardware incompatible with the latest version of the firmware and software. They still work fine with the old stuff, but how long will it be before an operating system update means it won't any longer?
The Phantoms are much better sounding than the Meridians but anything digital is prone to a short life IME just due to obsolescence.

On that basis I am prepared to pay about ¼ of the price for a digital active speaker than a normal active or amp/speaker combination since that is about the difference in useable life.
 

richard12511

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There's actually someone on another forum that sold his 8C and bought the the 8361A and said it's a lot better.

Interesting...

Is that person using subwoofers? From my understanding, the 8361As advantage over the 8351B is more about max spl then it is about extension, so I'm a bit surprised. I would expect the bass of the 8C to be quite a bit better than the 8361. Could just be a weird room interaction thing. Low end can be all over the place, and really takes a lot of time to setup properly.

Also, looking at the measurements of the 8361a, I'm not sure the mids and highs are as good as the 8351B, which is what I was comparing to the 8C.

Also, from what I've read the 8C is more "musical" than the 8361A and i actually like the clinical/analytical sound of the Genelec more, plus i like the aluminum cabinet a lot more :)

The 8C was a little warming sounding, imo, whereas the 8351 sounded a touch more neutral(to my ears). If you're someone who is sensitive to high frequencies, you might actually prefer the treble on the 8C more. How close is that 8C dealer you mentioned? I would really try and see if you can get a demo.

*Edit: I misread your reply as you saying you liked the warmer sound.
 
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thewas

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A friend of mine had ordered a pair of D&D 8c to compare directly to his Neumann KH 310 and invited also several audiophiles including me who I also measured their LP reponses (have posted them in a different thread here).
While the cardioid behaviour of the 8c above 100 Hz showed one less SBIR dip there (but in exchange another in the deep bass) the listening qualities were both on a very high level and could be rather categorised as taste and approximately half of the persons preferred the one the other half the other, himself also wasn't overwhelmed about the rather smaller and taste differences so he kept his KH 310.
 

thewas

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Kii Three is louder
Is it really significantly louder?
Unfortunately I have only detailed data of the Kii Three and 8351a which has less SPL then the 8351b

1606326945132.png

source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/kii-three-midfield-monitor-im-test/

1606326954694.png

source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitor-genelec-8351a-im-test/

but even there the relevant (blue 10% THD at bass and red 3% above) max SPL curves don't look very far away, do you have ones for the 8351b?
 

Purité Audio

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A friend of mine had ordered a pair of D&D 8c to compare directly to his Neumann KH 310 and invited also several audiophiles including me who I also measured their LP reponses (have posted them in a different thread here).
While the cardioid behaviour of the 8c above 100 Hz showed one less SBIR dip there (but in exchange another in the deep bass) the listening qualities were both on a very high level and could be rather categorised as taste and approximately half of the persons preferred the one the other half the other, himself also wasn't overwhelmed about the rather smaller and taste differences so he kept his KH 310.
Presumably he uses subs with the KH?
Keith
 

thewas

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Presumably he uses subs with the KH?
Keith
He had subs but he wasn't using them anymore (also at the comparisons) as he mainly listens in normal living room SPLs and his listening distance isn't extreme.
 

Purité Audio

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I haven’t heard the latest range only the 300? some yers ago, which didn’t impress.
’Usually’ the 8Cs score on placement, adjustment and transparency versus even decent traditional actives.
Keith
 

LTig

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I think the main reason is that passive speakers last for a really fucking long time, decades Infact. Possibly even forever.

with active speakers it’s a completely different story. Basically a good investment in a passive speakers is a life investment.
Not those with foam surrounds. 10 years and they're gone.
 

q3cpma

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That Genelec isn't in the same league with Kii.
I'll use the 8361A in this comparison, as the Kii is even more expensive than it, SAR doesn't have data for the 8351B and the bigger Ones share the exact same midrange, tweeter and crossover frequencies.

Kii Three is louder
KII-MAX.jpg

8361-MAX.png

No. The 8361A's tweeter can't play as loud as the Kii after 5 kHz, but the midrange is averaging 5 dB louder. Bass is also a lot louder on the 8361A, even with that dip. Wonder how the 8351B does, but I doubt it's completely eclipsed by the Kii.

and has cardioid pattern down to low frequencies and will interact much less and benign with listening enviroment.
Kii-hor.jpg

Indeed the real party piece. Note that the 8361A also has a rather nice LF directivity control on its longest side:
8361-ver.png
 

nerdoldnerdith

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The best of both worlds would be a speaker with separate inputs for each driver and a passive crossover that could be easily toggled with a switch. You could use a single amp to drive it like a regular passive speaker or separately amplify each driver.

Honestly, I would prefer that speakers came with the inputs to independently drive each driver and dropped the crossover entirely. It would have the advantages of active designs while still letting you choose the electronics. Active crossovers are better these days, and there's no sense spending money on a complex passive crossover that you're not going to use.

We would just need better options for low power amplification. In such a system one would need something like 50W x 8 instead of 200W x 2.
 

q3cpma

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The best of both worlds would be a speaker with separate inputs for each driver and a passive crossover that could be easily toggled with a switch. You could use a single amp to drive it like a regular passive speaker or separately amplify each driver.

Honestly, I would prefer that speakers came with the inputs to independently drive each driver and dropped the crossover entirely. It would have the advantages of active designs while still letting you choose the electronics. Active crossovers are better these days, and there's no sense spending money on a complex passive crossover that you're not going to use.

We would just need better options for low power amplification. In such a system one would need something like 50W x 8 instead of 200W x 2.
This with some freely licensed crossover implementations for stuff like LADSPA/LV2.
 

EJ3

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You've asked the question - i gave my version of answer.

This very much reminds me of cheap 5.1 surround systems hype. As soon the price went down, everyone hurried to replace their old obsolete passive speakers and amplifiers. I bought so much cool stuff back then. People left whole collections of LP's in front of their yards and apartments. When those 5.1 begun to brake, things changed quite fast. I'm seing similar hype now for soundbars and cheap actives. You have to pay at least 250-300€ for a decent sounding soundbar or actives.

In my oppinion, if you buy actives, buy if it has any real advantage - as is the case with Kii3, Beolab 90, D&D and Lexicon. If you buy Genelec, you're paying a whole lot of money just to be able to put everything in that one cabinet. Given the quality of components they are using, their price is to high.

Once more - active vs passive comparison:

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/dxt-mon-vs-neumann-kh-120a/
Thank God that due to an Austrian mother, I can read German. I hope that those that can't can get that properly translated.
 
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