CEntrance Hifi-M8 V2 Review (DAC and headphone amplifier)

[PeteL]

Are you sure ? with such low power available, as I read specs ... I can't even consider it more than my smartphone or my Qudelix 5K (which is perfect with my Beyedynamic Xelento, but not at all with most of full headphones)... I wonder what is the destination of this ? no power for many IEM (like the IER-Z1R and even no Bluetooth for smartphone connection for Qubuz), any good DAP like Fiio M11 provides far more power than this amp too.

As I am still looking a way for a way to provide 1.4W at 32 ohms in balanced mode through XLR4. I am still waiting for it to drive at home (where I want) some headphones with 42ohms and 87db.. If you know a real alternative, it would be nice to share it !

Actually the only serious way is to go to Sony DMP-Z1 at 10K€..
From these last weeks, I am considering ifi IDSD signature ... but exactly same price as M8 V2 (I ordered e few months ago).
My Xduoo XD-05+ was, till now, the best price/service available with 1000mw ( unbalanced) and really portable... but it's missing sometimes powerful clear impacts in low frequencies (not enough instant voltage available, low quality capacitors ?)

Thanks for the reference to the ifi Idsd signature, I could use something like that. I like the fact that it has line out too.

 

[SIY]

So @amirm have you received any data from CEntrance yet? Apparently you have to see it before us unwashed masses do.

 

[ReAlien]

You seem to be new here, so perhaps you don't know that this site is all about objectively provable performance, not subjective impressions, no matter you much you trust the sources of those impressions. Many, many highly regarded (by subjective reviewers) products turn out to be not just poor value, but poor in absolute terms.

Maybe you can prove that the charts that Amir shows directly correlate to the listening experience?

Yeah, I'm here for two years only, so I guess I'm a rookie in your eyes, but I have sufficient personal experience with products that Amir recommended (THX 789 & Topping E30) to understand that his tests are useless for me in terms of judging the sound of a device.

 

[ReAlien]

Again, liking something is not relevant to discussing its performance. Liking something with poor performance is fine, but liking something does not mean that it performs well.

If one would create musical devices for robots, your point would be correct, but human ears + brains are not that linear. Audio industry experience proves that many many people enjoy certain harmonics and do not want sterile sound made by "well-performing" devices.

 

[Nango]

@ReAlien Do you really think that a mfr who produces a device with all the harmonics that you like to hear intended to produce it that way? ... Or are you purchasing its "random product"?? I definitely dont want to pay a single penny for "random production" ...... even in case I liked it, no way I'll pay for "random"!!

 

[AudioSceptic]

Maybe you can prove that the charts that Amir shows directly correlate to the listening experience?

Yeah, I'm here for two years only, so I guess I'm a rookie in your eyes, but I have sufficient personal experience with products that Amir recommended (THX 789 & Topping E30) to understand that his tests are useless for me in terms of judging the sound of a device.

So, the measurements are worthless to you? Given that these are what this site is all about, I'm surprised that you find any use for it. BTW I've been here only since Jul 2019, although I did some reading of reviews before that, so I'm also a rookie.

 

[ReAlien]

@ReAlien Do you really think that a mfr who produces a device with all the harmonics that you like to hear intended to produce it that way? ... Or are you purchasing its "random product"?? I definitely dont want to pay a single penny for "random production" ...... even in case I liked it, no way I'll pay for "random"!!

I believe the mfr produces that device that people will like to listen to. Not just look at the accompanying THD charts. And I have not found any proof here that Centrance fooled their customers with any specs.

Anyway, I do not want to tell people how they like it. If some prefer to buy products based on greats specs only, it is their cup of tea, I do not judge. In this case, they can rely on Amir's reports. I understand that this is a site for such people and I will not find any support here, I just wanted to point out that a smartphone with great specs will not sound better (to my ears among many others) than some products that Amir shamed in here over the years.

 

[SIY]

Let me guess- you haven’t done any ears-only evaluations? If you have, I’d be interested to hear about the setup and results.

 

[ReAlien]

So, the measurements are worthless to you? Given that these are what this site is all about, I'm surprised that you find any use for it. BTW I've been here only since Jul 2019, although I did some reading of reviews before that, so I'm also a rookie.

Yes, without a listening test the measurements Amir produces are worthless to me as I have found with the THX and the Topping he praised. It is just another reminder for me that scientists still do not know enough about how our brains experience music.

 

[Nango]

I believe the mfr produces that device that people will like to listen to. Not just look at the accompanying THD charts. And I have not found any proof here that Centrance fooled their customers with any specs.

Anyway, I do not want to tell people how they like it. If some prefer to buy products based on greats specs only, it is their cup of tea, I do not judge. In this case, they can rely on Amir's reports. I understand that this is a site for such people and I will not find any support here, I just wanted to point out that a smartphone with great specs will not sound better (to my ears among many others) than some products that Amir shamed in here over the years.

Never understood his comments and reviews like "it measures well, it sounds well" but he simply unveils inablity of a couple of mfr who said were producing certain gear in terms of "fidelity" or transparency and it later turned out they were not.

 

[SIY]

Yes, without a listening test the measurements Amir produces are worthless to me as I have found with the THX and the Topping he praised. It is just another reminder for me that scientists still do not know enough about how our brains experience music.

So you’re unfamiliar with the vast literature on psychoacoustics?

What scientists absolutely know is that accurate and reliable evaluation of sound MUST be done ears-only. That means basic controls: level matching and double blind. If you haven’t done that, then your evaluations are likely based on non-sonic factors.

 

[radioman]

So @amirm have you received any data from CEntrance yet? Apparently you have to see it before us unwashed masses do.

We notice your impatience and we invite you to bear with us as we get to the bottom of this issue. No worries, we will have clarity soon. Allow me to outline what we are working on:

- Of course, we could publish a different plot on our website. However, it will not answer the question: "Why is your plot different from Amir's?" It will just become the battle of the websites and that's not going to help anyone. We don't want a stand-off, we want to understand what actually happened.

- We were told Amir was planning to send his unit to us on Monday. We are anxiously waiting to test that on our side to make sure something in it is not out of wack. While that would be embarrassing for our QA dept., it would provide a simple explanation for a difference in measurements.

- In parallel, we are considering the test procedures. HiFi-M8 is far more complex than the "$9 dongle", so it may actually be impossible to test them the same way. For example, which output would you consider for line out? Neither is labelled as such. So the reviewer was forced to choose on their own. Was there a better choice? Did we adequately explain about the power and impedances on the power side?

- As the manufacturer, we have a responsibility to do a good job explaining the product to the user. If we failed to outline something, we need to improve the descriptions we use. For example, we have referred to the product as a 4-output headphone amp, and the two sides as "cool side" and "hot side". Only the hot side was tested in this review. This may be due to our imperfect description.

- We are wondering if our description could be made better by labeling them differently, i.e. "headphone amp" and "power amp". This is a more familiar terminology, but up until now we had not thought of the product this way. If you consider HiFi-M8 V2 a portable power amp with a separate headphone amplifier, the message to the customer (and the reviewer) is quite different indeed. The product category is also quite different.

- As you see, we are not interested in casting blame, and will gladly take the responsibility ourselves if we failed to test the product in Amir's hands or if we failed to describe its nature to the customer. We are using this opportunity to educate ourselves on what to do better as we continue to make non-mainstream gear that ticks several boxes at the same time. Boy, oh boy, wouldn't it be simpler to just make a straight-vanilla DAC with a single output, but somehow we are just not driven that way. We keep making these Swiss Army knife-type things for esoteric users. May be that's also an opportunity for improvement

- This last point is not an excuse, but a slight complication to the process. I'm out of town until Thanksgiving, up in the mountains, with spotty cell service. Meanwhile the team is in Chicago. We are coordinating this remotely. We will get it done, but if it takes an extra day, you know why.

Michael

 

[AudioSceptic]

Yes, without a listening test the measurements Amir produces are worthless to me as I have found with the THX and the Topping he praised. It is just another reminder for me that scientists still do not know enough about how our brains experience music.

Amir usually does listening tests and, for him, those correlate strongly with the measurements (if they didn't this site would be rather different!). Clearly those don't match your experience. Why do you think that would be? That devices that measure well somehow lose information (if so, how?), or that ones that you prefer add various distortions that you happen to like?

Edit: Of course, I assume that these are real audible differences and not due to other factors (see SIY's comments).

 

[Nango]

We notice your impatience and we invite you to bear with us as we get to the bottom of this issue. No worries, we will have clarity soon. Allow me to outline what we are working on:

- Of course, we could publish a different plot on our website. However, it will not answer the question: "Why is your plot different from Amir's?" It will just become the battle of the websites and that's not going to help anyone. We don't want a stand-off, we want to understand what actually happened.

- We were told Amir was planning to send his unit to us on Monday. We are anxiously waiting to test that on our side to make sure something in it is not out of wack. While that would be embarrassing for our QA dept., it would provide a simple explanation for a difference in measurements.

- In parallel, we are considering the test procedures. HiFi-M8 is far more complex than the "$9 dongle", so it may actually be impossible to test them the same way. For example, which output would you consider for line out? Neither is labelled as such. So the reviewer was forced to choose on their own. Was there a better choice? Did we adequately explain about the power and impedances on the power side?

- As the manufacturer, we have a responsibility to do a good job explaining the product to the user. If we failed to outline something, we need to improve the descriptions we use. For example, we have referred to the product as a 4-output headphone amp, and the two sides as "cool side" and "hot side". Only the hot side was tested in this review. This may be due to our imperfect description.

- We are wondering if our description could be made better by labeling them differently, i.e. "headphone amp" and "power amp". This is a more familiar terminology, but up until now we had not thought of the product this way. If you consider HiFi-M8 V2 a portable power amp with a separate headphone amplifier, the message to the customer (and the reviewer) is quite different indeed. The product category is also quite different.

- As you see, we are not interested in casting blame, and will gladly take the responsibility ourselves if we failed to test the product in Amir's hands or if we failed to describe its nature to the customer. We are using this opportunity to educate ourselves on what to do better as we continue to make non-mainstream gear that ticks several boxes at the same time. Boy, oh boy, wouldn't it be simpler to just make a straight-vanilla DAC with a single output, but somehow we are just not driven that way. We keep making these Swiss Army knife-type things for esoteric users. May be that's also an opportunity for improvement

- This last point is not an excuse, but a slight complication to the process. I'm out of town until Thanksgiving, up in the mountains, with spotty cell service. Meanwhile the team is in Chicago. We are coordinating this remotely. We will get it done, but if it takes an extra day, you know why.

Michael

Again - exemplary behavior.

 

[ReAlien]

So you’re unfamiliar with the vast literature on psychoacoustics?

What scientists absolutely know is that accurate and reliable evaluation of sound MUST be done ears-only. That means basic controls: level matching and double blind. If you haven’t done that, then your evaluations are likely based on non-sonic factors.

My evaluations are done by my ears only. But my experience shows that double-blind testing is as much a way to avoid a placebo as it is a way to welcome one. This can be checked by listening to the same sound without any changes — on many occasions, each time it would sound a bit different to your ears-brains. Sometimes wildly different. That is why I always judge the differences in sound in a long term. Getting used to one sound during several days and then changing it to another and giving myself enough time to find out the differences in familiar records. Simple A-B tests are not reliable in many cases.

I admit that I have not read much literature about psychoacoustics and I tell only about my personal experiences.

 

[ReAlien]

Amir usually does listening tests and, for him, those correlate strongly with the measurements (if they didn't this site would be rather different!). Clearly those don't match your experience. Why do you think that would be? That devices that measure well somehow lose information (if so, how?), or that ones that you prefer add various distortions that you happen to like?

Edit: Of course, I assume that these are real audible differences and not due to other factors (see SIY's comments).

Amir's listening tests are not reliable in any way in my view. He just maxes out the volume and judges if he hears distortions.

I like devices that sound "natural" to my ears, i.e. close to what I hear in real life with real instruments and voices. This is my way and I do not impose my views on anyone.

 

[SIY]

My evaluations are done by my ears only. But my experience shows that double-blind testing is as much a way to avoid a placebo as it is a way to welcome one. This can be checked by listening to the same sound without any changes — on many occasions, each time it would sound a bit different to your ears-brains. Sometimes wildly different. That is why I always judge the differences in sound in a long term. Getting used to one sound during several days and then changing it to another and giving myself enough time to find out the differences in familiar records. Simple A-B tests are not reliable in many cases.

I admit that I have not read much literature about psychoacoustics and I tell only about my personal experiences.

If you’re not evaluating double blind and level matched, you are absolutely not evaluating ears only. I don’t mean to be harsh, but it’s nonetheless true- from a sonic point of view, the evaluations are worthless.

If you’re unfamiliar with the literature, it’s probably unwise to make claims about what scientists know and don’t know.

 

[ReAlien]

If you’re not evaluating double blind and level matched, you are absolutely not evaluating ears only. I don’t mean to be harsh, but it’s nonetheless true- from a sonic point of view, the evaluations are worthless.

I agree that level matching is important for A-B tests. Even the slightest change in volume can make a noticeable difference in the perception of sound. That is why long-term evaluations only.

If you’re unfamiliar with the literature, it’s probably unwise to make claims about what scientists know and don’t know.

My wrong. I was quick to suppose a link between what modern science says and what believers in measurements say.

DISCLAIMER: I do not want another futile discourse on the subject. I just made a small remark that there is an opinion that a good specs smartphone does not necessarily sound better than bad specs portable/desktop DAC/amp in terms of the general naturalness of the sound. If you disagree, that is fine with me.

 

[SIY]

Level matching, and to a really fine degree, is necessary but not sufficient. You also need double blinding. These are the minimum requirements for any credible evaluation.

 

[amirm]

My evaluations are done by my ears only. But my experience shows that double-blind testing is as much a way to avoid a placebo as it is a way to welcome one. This can be checked by listening to the same sound without any changes — on many occasions, each time it would sound a bit different to your ears-brains. Sometimes wildly different.

Well said. BIG warning to people who say "I trust my ears." If ears give you different results for the same input, be afraid, be very afraid to use them to judge difference in your audio gear in uncontrolled tests. This is why the protocol for proper listening tests calls for many iterations to make sure the variability is dialed out. It is no different than drug research where someone may just get better by themselves and not because of the medication.