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Why do passive speakers still exist?

chelgrian

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Storm Audio has a processor that will do it via AES/EBU. Also, there are JBL processors with Dante outputs.

They exist but they are limited to 16bit/48KHz output due the idiocy written in to HDCP agreements amongst other things.

It would be so much more efficient to separate out the HDMI switching, decode in to discrete channels, speaker processing (including room correction) etc and connect each bit together with a single cat 5 cable.

Thank Hollywood paranoia for not being able to do this in the consumer space.
 

Kal Rubinson

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They exist but they are limited to 16bit/48KHz output due the idiocy written in to HDCP agreements amongst other things.
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Thank Hollywood paranoia for not being able to do this in the consumer space.
That is unfortunate especially for those of us who are not interested in movies. :oops:
 

richard12511

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Doubt that very much, the synergy claim is pretty much the whole subjective thing. The power is adequate or it is not, it is clean enough or it is not, the speakers are adequate to the task or not. The notion that these really small differences are somehow audible is questionable. What exactly about actives are guaranteed to be better in an audible sense, assuming the passive gear is able to be audibly transparent?

What makes actives better in an audible sense is that they allow their designers to make design decisions that are just not available to passive speaker designers. Essentially, active speaker manufacturers are working with bigger set of tools.

That’s not to say that passive speakers can’t be better than active ones. Even with a lesser toolset, a great engineer can still out design a bad engineer. Once the skill sets are equalized, though, the engineer with the better tools will win.
 
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Sancus

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I think were is the operative word there ;)



Do you have a source for this?

If the amps are built in-house, I'll be bowled over.

If the drivers are built in-house and not spec'd to Tymphany or similar to be produced off-shore, I'll be... moderately surprised.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-disassembled-my-genelec-8351b.14874/

A couple people in this thread stated that they use their own Class D amps in The Ones, but there's no source either unless that's something you can recognize from the internal shots. I certainly cannot :p
 

A Surfer

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The synergy comes from the fact that one company is designing the complete package, instead of buying an engine from one company, a chassis from another, and an interior from another, could it work? Yes for sure, but it would be harder to get to the same level of synergy that you get from buying a complete car from Toyota.
Car companies do use parts from all over, they don't make everything themselves, there are many vendors involved. Plus, that isn't at all evidence that the synergy you talk about is at all audible, it is theoretical and I am not sure how it can be quantified in any truly objective way. That returns me again to my question, how is this theoretical synergistic advantage translated into audible improvement?
 

A Surfer

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What makes actives better in an audible sense is that they allow their designers to make design decisions that are just not available to passive speaker designers. Essentially, active speaker manufacturers are working with bigger set of tools.

That’s not to say that passive speakers can’t be better than active ones. Even with a lesser toolset, a great engineer can still out design a bad engineer. Once the skill sets are equalized, though, the engineer with the better tools will win.
That doesn't mean anything will be audibly different. Theoretically, possibly even measurably different, but I am asking about evidence of audible benefit.
 

richard12511

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That doesn't mean anything will be audibly different. Theoretically, possibly even measurably different, but I am asking about evidence of audible benefit.
I’m not sure I follow. The fact that active designs have inherent “audible” advantages (as I mentioned) guarantees that they will sound better when all another factors are held constant. The fact that all other factors are never held constant does not negate that fact. The trends will show over time with a large enough sample.
 

restorer-john

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A couple people in this thread stated that they use their own Class D amps in The Ones, but there's no source either unless that's something you can recognize from the internal shots. I certainly cannot

You mean this quote?

They use their own class D amplifiers, otherwise, some chipamps for their older AB models.

Looks to me they are using 3x International Rectifier IRS 209xx Class D drivers with mosfets. Certainly not anything special and hardly their "own" design. I guess if following an application note is your own design, then yeah....

Zoomed in pic from the Genelec disassembly thread:
IRF.JPG


IRFx3.JPG


app note.JPG
 
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Sancus

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Looks to me they are using 3x International Rectifier IRS 209xx Class D drivers with mosfets. Certainly not anything special and hardly their "own" design. I guess if following an application note is your own design, then yeah....

Thanks. Yep, that quote and one other are the ones I was referring to. Not terribly surprised to find they are wrong, as they didn't provide any source or other information.

I would also have been fairly surprised if Genelec was really doing their own amplifier design more than just implementing reference PCBs.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Thanks. Yep, that quote and one other are the ones I was referring to. Not terribly surprised to find they are wrong, as they didn't provide any source or other information.

I would also have been fairly surprised if Genelec was really doing their own amplifier design more than just implementing reference PCBs.
Not sure about the amps, but pretty sure the drivers are in-house.
 

Sancus

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Not sure about the amps, but pretty sure the drivers are in-house.

Yes, Genelec does state directly that they manufacture the drivers for The Ones in-house. The drivers are clearly their own design, especially the woofers. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if significant portions are custom built for them by some driver manufacturer.

Though in general I'm not super concerned with where they get their parts, it's the end product and its performance that matters to me as an owner. The internals are interesting in an academic sort of way, that's all.
 

richard12511

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I love the term "synergy" in audio discussions.

It typically refers to a wish for the audio to be improved in some way. But the person making the wish isn't actually able to articulate the science or engineering behind the synergy.

Ignoring synergy(between amps, speakers, dacs, cables, etc.) is one of the 10 most common mistakes that new audiophiles make when getting into the hobby. At least that's what youtube tells me ;).
 

raistlin65

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Ignoring synergy(between amps, speakers, dacs, cables, etc.) is one of the 10 most common mistakes that new audiophiles make when getting into the hobby. At least that's what youtube tells me ;).

There are good arguments for that. When an amp and DAC have synergy....well, you know. They got synergy. lol
 

restorer-john

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The main reason I have never and probably will never buy a powered speaker is frankly because buying separate components is more fun. I also place a lot of importance on how components look. Don't @ me.

Fair enough! Powered speakers are pretty boring to look at with all the good bits hidden around the back with tiny little DIP switches and plastic rotary dials.

Each to their own I say. :)
 

A Surfer

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I’m not sure I follow. The fact that active designs have inherent “audible” advantages (as I mentioned) guarantees that they will sound better when all another factors are held constant. The fact that all other factors are never held constant does not negate that fact. The trends will show over time with a large enough sample.
You can't know that, it could just as easily turn out opposite. Holding things constant if one is at a lower level for instance is true, but that doesn't preclude the fact that something could still be better. I really don't think in a blind listening test, multiple trials, if you were reviewing a speaker that had been designed to be used both active and passive, if you heard it driven by it's internals, then they were defeated and equally good externals were used to drive it, I just don't think you would hear anything different. Why would you? The point has not been established that using internals will somehow provide audibly better results, it might in some comparisons and not in others.
 

EJ3

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I ran a tri-amp'd system with active crossover for years and it was ace for fiddling with although to be honest once I had it dialed in I rarely touched it unless I let a friend play with it to get a handle on it's operation. I heartily recommend active crossovers. Genelec does have the GLM system for fiddling and it's supposed to be pretty good. That interests me.
https://www.genelec.com/glm
Yes, this is related to use ACTIV speakers or not: I am running my NAD 2200 triplets tri-amped. The APT/Homan pre-amp runs into a Harrison labs Analog Parametric (PFMOD) that sends everything below 80 Hz to my pair of subs (running 800 watt RMS a channel (2 Ohms) stereo and the mains running bridged mono 1K watts @ 8 Ohms each. My room is L- shaped with a !/2 cathedral ceiling in the living room side (And a curved 96" bay window behind curtains like stages have), At the front of the listeng area is a 5 ft wide fire place starting 3 bricks high from the floor and sticking 2 bricks deep into the room. At 5 ft up is a 5 ft wide, 4" thick, 6" deep mantle sticking into the room. There is a 1/2 room width wall at the back that the length of which connects at the cathedral ceiling , the other side of which (further back) has 3 steps going down to the left (behind the 1/2 wall). 3 feet even further back is a full staircase going upwards to a platform 2 more steps further back and an inset door. To the front right the ceiling drops from 16 feet to 8 feet and the foot of the L is the dining room with a Chandelier (further breaks up any remaining standing waves). While I have not measured the room response, I am pretty sure that there are very few (if any) bass nulls in this room. Moving around on this area the things I detect with my ears are differences that relate to being off-axis with frequencies above say 300 Hz. (I have received my Behringer DEQ2496 back & will be doing some measuring and EQing in the next 6 months). But if I removed my Preamps, amps, passive speakers and subs and went with ACTIVE speakers, even with the 96" couch, a 3/4 floor rug, some paintings and carvings by artistic relatives, I would have to buy some stuff to put into the room to keep it from looking sterile. So aesthetics is another reason to not use ACTIVE speakers. On the other hand, in smaller rooms, they may be a Godsend. It happens that the house that I live in, that my parents designed and built themselves (with the help of friends) in 1964, has 2 separate attics. There are no 'small' rooms in this house that I inherited.
 
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Doodski

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I am running my NAD 2200 triplets tri-amped. The APT/Homan pre-amp runs into a Harrison labs Analog Parametric (PFMOD) that sends everything below 80 Hz to my pair of subs (running 800 watt RMSs a channel (2 Ohms) stereo and the mains running bridged mono 1K watts @ 8 Ohms each.
That sounds pretty sweet. Loads of power available. I like that. :D
I used a Coustic XM-7 car active crossover with a modified by me power supply to get clean power to it.
Coustic.JPG
 
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