Why do passive speakers still exist?

[thewas]

There is some minor advantages with passive driven tweeters, and that is the opportunity to :
1. Less thermal compression if you use a resistor before the tweeter.
2. Less distortion.

Could you please explain those two points?
By the way with high tech active designs you can also monitor the voice coil temperature and compensate thermal compression
https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/01/16/bo-tech-thermal-compression-compensation/

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It would also be super interesting to hear your thoughts on the requirements for (or an example of) what you would consider as an active speaker suitable for domestic application.

Dunno if I can be useful because I am able to speak only for me and my situation. Basically, I would want floor-standers like the Revel Studio2s that I have, perhaps in more than one size and with no requirement for near-wall placement. I prefer softer edges and wood finish and I could easily tolerate off-boarding the interconnect/DSP/amp module but none of that is a requirement. The Kii Three+BXT comes pretty close.

OTOH, any design must accommodate a multichannel configuration with digital and analog inputs. Dante/Ravenna/AES67???

 

[A Surfer]

Maybe better amplification, but actives are a package, that's the whole Point, even though some parts maybe inferior, there's a synergy that's harder to duplicate with passives.

Doubt that very much, the synergy claim is pretty much the whole subjective thing. The power is adequate or it is not, it is clean enough or it is not, the speakers are adequate to the task or not. The notion that these really small differences are somehow audible is questionable. What exactly about actives are guaranteed to be better in an audible sense, assuming the passive gear is able to be audibly transparent?

 

[StefaanE]

Well you need double the number of cables (signal and power), but yeah you can skip the DAC and amp.

Or you go wireless. Then the only lead you need is power, and I have more power sockets in my lounge than speaker connectors. What I really would like to see is a multi-channel sound/image processor with digital pre-outs, but that’s impossible due to licensing restrictions, I understand. Otherwise, the moment one goes multi-channel, quite a lot, if not most, of active speakers will digitize the input to be able to use DSP.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Doubt that very much, the synergy claim is pretty much the whole subjective thing. The power is adequate or it is not, it is clean enough or it is not, the speakers are adequate to the task or not. The notion that these really small differences are somehow audible is questionable. What exactly about actives are guaranteed to be better in an audible sense, assuming the passive gear is able to be audibly transparent?

The synergy comes from the fact that one company is designing the complete package, instead of buying an engine from one company, a chassis from another, and an interior from another, could it work? Yes for sure, but it would be harder to get to the same level of synergy that you get from buying a complete car from Toyota.

 

[Matt S]

The lack of choice in amplification also deters me: there are some actives that need a lot more power in the bass section. Currently most actives do not sound that good (unless you spend a lot of money) and many people already have way better amplification, than most actives and are happy with it. Why are there different anything's? Because people make different choices. Some want inexpensive,& don't care about the sound, some don't care about the price & only about the sound, some care about power cables being at every speaker, some don't. I all has to do with preferences and priorities. I could see it for for 2 channel (but wouldn't do it except with stuff I could never afford) but needing a way to power each speaker in a surround sound system, not so much. I have separates for everything, the point being that if something goes down it's can be quickly replaced or repaired while other parts of the system will handle the signal without much issue. If anything goes down with an active speaker, whatever it is, it takes that speaker out of the system until it is repairedor replaced. In 6 or 7 years (or more) will you be able to obtain any given part for the active speaker?

"Most actives don't sound that good" ?.. at which price point? An amp designed for and driving a specific driver.. its taken the hifi world so long to realise what the pro audio industry, where our music is produced, has known about and been doing for years and years.

 

[RayDunzl]

Yes for sure, but it would be harder to get to the same level of synergy that you get from buying a complete car from Toyota.

Toyota Explains Why The New Supra Is Powered By BMW

 

[andreasmaaan]

The synergy comes from the fact that one company is designing the complete package, instead of buying an engine from one company, a chassis from another, and an interior from another, could it work? Yes for sure, but it would be harder to get to the same level of synergy that you get from buying a complete car from Toyota.

But that’s exactly what active speaker companies are doing.

E.g. Genelec 80x0:

• Drivers: Tymphany
• Amplifiers: Texas Instruments
• DSP: (probably) Texas Instruments
• etc.

And this is the right way to do things! There’s rarely any advantage in doing something in-house that some other manufacturer is more specialised in.

Especially given that what matters (in eg amps) is power, reliability, noise/distortion, and cost. Not some magical synergistic whatever that only one manufacturer can do in-house and that obviously doesn’t exist!

Why would a loudspeaker manufacturer go to all the trouble and expense of building a specialised factory and hiring specialised engineers just so they can build their own amps that are functionally identical to those of a specialised amp manufacturer that moreover can do it far cheaper due to the larger scale of their production?

Would be expensive and utterly pointless.

And the same goes for drivers in 99% of cases.

 

[Pearljam5000]

But that’s exactly what active speaker companies are doing.

E.g. Genelec 80x0:

• Drivers: Tymphany
• Amplifiers: Texas Instruments
• DSP: (probably) Texas Instruments
• etc.

And this is the right way to do things! There’s rarely any advantage in doing something in-house that some other manufacturer is more specialised in.

Especially given that what matters (in eg amps) is power, reliability, noise/distortion, and cost. Not some magical synergistic je ne se pas that only one manufacturer can do in-house.

Why would a loudspeaker manufacturer go to all the trouble and expense of building a specialised factory an hiring specialised engineers just so they can build their own amps that are functionally identical to those of a specialised amp manufacturer that moreover can do it far cheaper due to the larger scale of their production?

Would be expensive and utterly pointless.

And the same goes for drivers in 99% of cases.

I didn't say they have to make everything in-house, Toyota also doesn't make everything in-house, but they design everything from the ground up so everything works the best together, you as a single person can't do it at the same level so you'll never reach that synergy of all the parts.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I didn't say they have to make everything in-house, Toyota also doesn't make everything in-house, but they design everything from the ground up so everything works the best together, you as a single person can't do it at the same level so you'll never reach that synergy of all the parts.

You were talking specifically about synergy between amps and drivers, were you not?

 

[Pearljam5000]

You were talking specifically about synergy between amps and drivers, were you not?

Nope
The whole package
Cabinet, amps, DACs, drivers.
Even if you buy the same parts yourself you can't make them work as good.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Nope
The whole package
Cabinet, amps, DACs, drivers.
Even if you buy the same parts yourself you can't make them work as good.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

 

[restorer-john]

And this is the right way to do things! There’s rarely any advantage in doing something in-house that some other manufacturer is more specialised in.

Yamaha built all their drivers, the equipment to make the drivers, produced the pulp, made the cabinet material, the veneer and even the vapor deposition equipment for their berylium domes. All in house.

Sony purpose built a driver and speaker factory in the late 1970s which brought the entire process from actual pulp manufacture, magnet construction, winding etc right through to completed and ready for shipping loudspeakers completly in house.

Jamo did the same, as did Dynaudio.

Dali, I believe are another example.

Some of the world's best loudspeakers were produced entirely in house. We live in an outsourcing world and some things are not better for it.

 

[Helicopter]

Focal or JBL are going to be able to get exactly what they want in a driver and will benefit from synergies. Neumann certainly did something special with an active discreet crossover. Lots of good speaker companies are going to design and manufacture cabinets too.

Chips, not so much. Better to leave that to TI, AKM, et al.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Yamaha built all their drivers, the equipment to make the drivers, produced the pulp, made the cabinet material, the veneer and even the vapor deposition equipment for their berylium domes. All in house.

Sony purpose built a driver and speaker factory in the late 1970s which brought the entire process from actual pulp manufacture, magnet construction, winding etc right through to completed and ready for shipping loudspeakers completley in house.

Jamo did the same, as did Dynaudio.

Dali, I believe are another example.

Some of the world's best loudspeakers were produced entirely in house. We live in an outsourcing world and some things are not better for it.

The new Genelec 8351B and 8361A are built entirely in- house, including the drivers which is pretty rare indeed.
On the hand i assume Kii Three and D&D 8C use outsourced drivers but still manage to sound great.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Some of the world's best loudspeakers were produced entirely in house. We live in an outsourcing world and some things are not better for it.

I think were is the operative word there

The new Genelec 8351B and 8361A are built entirely in- house, including the drivers which is pretty rare indeed.

Do you have a source for this?

If the amps are built in-house, I'll be bowled over.

If the drivers are built in-house and not spec'd to Tymphany or similar to be produced off-shore, I'll be... moderately surprised.

 

[restorer-john]

After being into hifi for 30 years or so, I must say that electronics breaking down or failing on me has been a very rare. On the contrary, even when I have purchased second hand amplifiers that are years or even decades old, they've been completely fine. Also, to me the main consideration is the performance while it's working, not what happens when it doesn't. I'm not saying it's completely irrelevant, but surely it shouldn't be the main focus?

Absolutely correct, but bear in mind, when you purchase 2nd hand gear, that gear is clearly the gear that didn't fail prematurely, get thrown out or returned. Buying working secondhand gear, by logical extension, you are buying the most reliable examples.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Absolutely correct, but bear in mind, when you purchase 2nd hand gear, that gear is clearly the gear that didn't fail prematurely, get thrown out or returned. Buying working secondhand gear, by logical extension, you are buying the most reliable examples.

There's a common wisdom saying isn't there? It's either going to break down in the first x months or not for many years...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What I really would like to see is a multi-channel sound/image processor with digital pre-outs, but that’s impossible due to licensing restrictions, I understand.

Storm Audio has a processor that will do it via AES/EBU. Also, there are JBL processors with Dante outputs.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I think were is the operative word there



Do you have a source for this?

If the amps are built in-house, I'll be bowled over.

If the drivers are built in-house and not spec'd to Tymphany or similar to be produced off-shore, I'll be... moderately surprised.

I read it somewhere but can't find it.
Maybe @Ilkka Rissanen can help.