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Why do passive speakers still exist?

bennybbbx

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I have an HT pre-pro which has no amps built in.
My main speakers are used as if they were active by sending the left and right signals to a passthrough connection on my stereo amp, the centre, surrounds and sub are all active and connected directly.
It does have symmetrical output sockets but I use the RCA without any problems here.
Audyssey works just the same in this setup as it would in a receiver driving passive speakers.
and how much have it cost ?. can ypu post a link ?. i did never see in HIFI mainstraim market a receiver or amp with outputs for active speakers(except subwoofer out). so the mainstream need passive speakers. I also not see in such a market a converter to add a active speakers on speaker out of such a receiver. I look for one on amazon, but find nothing
 
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Pearljam5000

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Another problem is that every amp sounds different, and it's hard marching it to passive speakers, actives already have the optimal amps that are matched specifically to them, and sometimes even matched to a specific driver.
 

andreasmaaan

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Another problem is that every amp sounds different

Oh really...? ;) Do you have any evidence for this?

actives already have the optimal amps that are matched specifically to them, and sometimes even matched to a specific driver

If by "matched specifically to them" you mean "powerful enough", then yes :)
 
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Pearljam5000

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Oh really...? ;) Do you have any evidence for this?



If by "matched specifically to them" you mean "powerful enough", then yes :)
From Genelec's site:
"Optimized Amplifiers. Each transducer is driven by its own optimized amplifier."
 

sigbergaudio

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Are those class D amplifiers used? I am in doubt about the longevity of class D amps.

Any specific reason why you think a solid state amp liked class D would have problems with longevity as opposed to more traditional solid state amps like AB, which typically survives for decades?
 

DSJR

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Oh really...? ;) Do you have any evidence for this?

In the exalted high end, I'm sure many amps do sound different as they're either underpowered, add too much distortion over the frequency range, may well offer poor power bandwidth/band limiting and to add the final insult, are probably valved/tubed with very high output impedance!!! Drive one of these high end confections into a typical speaker load and I'm sure it's audible ;)
 

andreasmaaan

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From Genelec's site:
"Optimized Amplifiers. Each transducer is driven by its own optimized amplifier."

In Genelec's 80x0 series, the amplifiers used are in the bottom tier (though not at the bottom of it!) in terms of objective performance (noise and distortion). The decision to use these amps is not doubt based plainly on cost, reliability, and power.

I'm not sure what they mean by "optimised". Have they redesigned parts of the circuit in some way because there was some specification that made the off-the-shelf units otherwise unsuitable for the drivers they power? Did they perform this "optimisation" in respect of each unique driver in each monitor?

I suggest the answers are no, and resoundingly no. Genelec, like all sensible manufacturers, has chosen amps that are powerful enough, reliable, and cost-effective. In their more expensive models they've used components that have lower noise and distortion, too.

In other words, they've made the same kinds of rational decisions about amplification that any active speaker manufacturer - and indeed any passive speaker owner - should make.
 

tmtomh

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Are those class D amplifiers used? I am in doubt about the longevity of class D amps. Again, I am not saying I know my position is anything more than a musing not fact. And if the amps in the M33 are actually class D, that may be an exception and as you know the exception does not prove the rule. Perhaps I am as wrong as wrong can be, totally acknowledge that, but I would have to really be confident to be putting down 1o and 15 thousand dollars for main system actives. I actually would be open to it once I was extremely confident in the longevity, but support moving forward is important.

Why are you in doubt about the longevity of Class D amps? Even musing needs some indication that it might be an issue.
 

Tangband

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There are numerous advantages of active speakers over passives. Whether these are significant or not in a given instance will depend on the specific design goal(s).

Active speakers allow a speaker designer to do the a number of things that are not possible (or highly impractical) in passive designs:
  • Avoiding caps, coils and resistors in the signal path, all of which degrade performance by adding distortion (not necessarily to the extent that it’s audible of course) and reducing efficiency.
  • Placing the acoustic centres of the drivers in locations optimised for acoustic interaction with the baffle and/or horn, without being shackled by the necessity of keeping the acoustic centres of the drivers on roughly the same Z-plane.
  • Implementing complex crossover filters enabling any/all of the following:
    • steeper crossover slopes (lowering distortion/stress on drivers)
    • better rejection of out-of-band signal (also lowering distortion/stress on drivers)
    • more precise use of crossover phase cancellation to control directivity (see e.g. Horbach-Keele)
    • implementation of cardioid radiation patterns allowing for wider-bandwidth directivity control (see e.g. Kii Three)
  • Extremely fine equalisation of driver responses, enabling the designer to select from a wider range of drivers/driver properties in the first place.
There are of course many active designs that would be only marginally better if implemented passively. In these cases, the only real improvements would be slightly more linear frequency response and less stress on the bass driver(s) (both of which can be implemented in DSP in the playback system anyway). In these cases, the differences are negligible.

However, for the reasons mentioned above, there are certainly many possibilities that active implementations offer speaker designers that enable them to produce speakers that have flatter frequency response, more precisely controlled directivity, lower distortion, and greater SPL capability than would otherwise have been possible.

+1.
There is some minor advantages with passive driven tweeters, and that is the opportunity to :
1. Less thermal compression if you use a resistor before the tweeter.
2. Less distortion.

But..... All of this can also be done with active loudspeakers. Simply put a resistor with the same value as the tweeter in series with the + pole .
A 4 ohm tweeter can have a 4 ohm resistor . The resistor and tweeter coil will then share the upbuilding heat = less thermal compression.
You loose some output, but you also get less noise. Its worth experimenting with this, if you have an active system.

In the lower frequencies , the active approach will be entirely beneficial.
 
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tvrgeek

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Most active speakers these days are class D, which I have yet to hear one I can stand. Getting there I know, but not yet. Years ago, B&O had the right idea. Ethernet to the speakers. Each had it's own DAC. I think they did the DSP for each in a central processor. It was a long time ago and I forget. Unfortunately, it was not ready for prime time sonically and they went a bit off the deep end stylistically.

One problem is, initial sticker shock. Very few people buy a complete system at one time. Usually upgrade piece by piece. Active speakers make it a very hard sell.

Nothing stops a clever engineer from building a hybrid system with active and passive components.

Another possible issue is for built-ins running power to places where it was not provided. Who wants to pay to have power run for a surround system to every speaker? I bet the building inspectors would be scratching their head. I guess you could design a power and signal cable that was plenum rated for most areas, but some require all power in armor. Nope, I'll stick with my power sequencer in the cabinet and zip cord to my speakers.
 

Chromatischism

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As long as we don't have active speakers that look as nice as the passives, don't hiss, and aren't XLR-only, it's a hard sell.

Hypex NCore has changed the game for me. Coupled with EQ from your source, quality passives bring huge performance for the price. The advantages active would bring are few and add a lot to the cost. And if you're looking for towers, currenty there are no offerings that I'm aware of other than Buchardt and the Nubert posted earlier that are available and come close to meeting the criteria above. And even that is getting pricey.

Let's revisit this in 5 years. Hopefully we have more options, though if things play out like in the photo world, the contraction of the market may mean that we're left with mostly expensive options in a world where everyone else has little Bluetooth boomboxes.
 
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q3cpma

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Most active speakers these days are class D, which I have yet to hear one I can stand.
Active speaker or class D amplifier? Anyway, preemptive "huh-huh".

One problem is, initial sticker shock. Very few people buy a complete system at one time. Usually upgrade piece by piece. Active speakers make it a very hard sell.
I don't know where this statistic comes from and I wouldn't trust it, but you can always sell your old stuff.

Nothing stops a clever engineer from building a hybrid system with active and passive components.
Wanting to engineer the best product? Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "component".

Another possible issue is for built-ins running power to places where it was not provided. Who wants to pay to have power run for a surround system to every speaker? I bet the building inspectors would be scratching their head. I guess you could design a power and signal cable that was plenum rated for most areas, but some require all power in armor. Nope, I'll stick with my power sequencer in the cabinet and zip cord to my speakers.
Well, this is annoying, but there's stuff like https://www.genelec.com/accessories/1510-303b/w-hybrid-cable avaiable to solve the problem neatly. You can do it yourself simply by buying heatshrink wrap or pretty sleeves and bulk cable.

Honestly, there are some valid concerns with active speakers (main one being that reliability/attention to detail is hit-or-miss unless you buy the top brands), but these aren't it.
 

q3cpma

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As long as we don't have active speakers that look as nice as the passives
By that, if you mean speakers that blend in "wooden" rooms, guess there isn't much choice. ME Geithain could be your thing.
don't hiss
Most expensive brands/models.
and aren't XLR-only, it's a hard sell.
Eh, can't you just buy RCA -> XLR cables?
 
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Pearljam5000

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As long as we don't have active speakers that look as nice as the passives, don't hiss, and aren't XLR-only, it's a hard sell.

Hypex NCore has changed the game for me. Coupled with EQ from your source, quality passives bring huge performance for the price. The advantages active would bring are few and add a lot to the cost. And if you're looking for towers, currenty there are no offerings that I'm aware of other than Buchardt and the Nubert posted earlier that are available and come close to meeting the criteria above. And even that is getting pricey.

Let's revisit this in 5 years. Hopefully we have more options, though the contraction of the high end market may mean that we're left with mostly expensive options in world where everyone else has little Bluetooth boomboxes.
nUTbFjGQ_large.jpeg
1503488212_1356518 (1).jpg
dutch-dutch-8c-speaker-white-baffle-natural-cabine.png

To me they're more beautiful than most passives
 

Kal Rubinson

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and how much have it cost ?. can ypu post a link ?. i did never see in HIFI mainstraim market a receiver or amp with outputs for active speakers(except subwoofer out). so the mainstream need passive speakers. I also not see in such a market a converter to add a active speakers on speaker out of such a receiver. I look for one on amazon, but find nothing
There are fewer and fewer AVRs with analog line level outputs but there are, also, AVPs (Audio Video Processors) which have only analog line level outputs, many of them with balanced XLR as well as unbalanced RCA outputs. The cheapest with XLR outs is, afaik, the Outlaw 976 . There are many others.
 

sigbergaudio

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There are fewer and fewer AVRs with analog line level outputs but there are, also, AVPs (Audio Video Processors) which have only analog line level outputs, many of them with balanced XLR as well as unbalanced RCA outputs. The cheapest with XLR outs is, afaik, the Outlaw 976 . There are many others.

I'm probably misunderstanding you here, but there's technically no difference between a power amplifier and an active speaker in this regard? And certainly a lot of stereo integrated amplifiers have regular RCA pre-out, and all pre-amplifiers necessarily do as they're designed for power amplifiers. XLR is less common, but not unheard of.

And most AVRs in the mid/high-end have pre-out RCA for all channels, and most cheaper ones have at least for subwoofer+main channels. Are there less than it used to be?

So in practice, if your setup supports a power amplifier, it will support active speakers (for any given channel).
 

valerianf

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40 years ago a french company named 3A started to commercialize active speakers similar to what we see nowadays.
The founder of 3A, an EE engineer, was visionary. Alas 3A does not exist any more.

Why to increase the failure rate of a speaker by putting a low cost class D amp inside it?
And you need to add a power cord to each speaker!
The most common issue with most low cost speakers is the passive cross over that is too simple because the manufacturer does not want to spend $ on it.
Do you really expect that the same speaker manufacturer will spend the need money in a class D amp and DSP?
I do not believe it is the case with the exception of professional / very expensive speakers .
 
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