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Vasr

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Anandtech and ars technica have some good info from hands on testing. The M1 looks very impressive.

No doubt. But they also have caveats. Only a couple of benchmarks which were easy to port to arm64 have been ported which also limits the breadth of benchmarks. I am not suggesting that the reported benchmarks are incorrect but they don't give a full picture yet.

Not only are so many of the reviews are anecdotal (it took me X seconds less to unzip Xcode or the web page loading zipped by) but not many have run benchmark tests themselves. Some of the benchmarks are by running iOS apps because native versions of x86 apps don't exist yet.

It is better to evaluate this objectively in context than people paraphrasing here. So why not link to the articles they are concluding from instead of "Many reviews are saying.." or just that it is impressive. We wouldn't tolerate it of someone did the same for audio equipment performance, would we? ;) (Rhetorical question, I know the answer is we would depending on our biases!).

Here are a couple:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-apple-m1-a-seriously-fast-x86-competitor/
This has the only two benchmark tests available. Everybody else refers to just these two.

My inference from this is that the M1 will just edge out the R7 4700U limited to 15W TDP in broader tests and exceptional in some and not so great in others. Right now, M1 does not have the option of using discrete graphic cards so what would be the performance relative to an AMD chip using a powerful graphics card for graphic intensive applications? We only have a chip to chip bench-marking now.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/Apple-M1-Chip-Everything-We-Know
has a some meta pointers without actual bench-marking.
 

tmtomh

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I realize that passions run high (for or against) when Apple is concerned but in the objective spirit of this forum, it would be better if people actually posted source links with data than paraphrasing into "Many people say..."

FUD and hype are two faces of the same coin.

Fair enough. Here are some links:

EDIT: Vasr, I believe you're partially missing the point and/or willfully misrepresenting the information currently out there. No one is claiming the M1 - again, a chip in the entry level, bottom of the line Macs, not designed for discrete GPUs or claiming to work with discrete GPUs - is going to exceed the performance of the highest-performing CPUs with higher TDPs than 10 watts and the ability to use discrete GPUs rather than on-board graphics.

The major "subjective" reviews I have seen are not just subjective - they provide benchmarks and there is repeatability among them, which significantly strengthens their bona fides. Moreover, the fact that there are few M1-optimized benchmark apps right now - although there are more each day - is a disadvantage for the M1 because people are using those Intel-only benchmark apps on M1 machines anyway, and the M1 is still holding up well.

You're also not taking into account battery life and thermals/fan noise.

Okay, back to the links:

Luke Miani on MacBook Air. He's not a super-scientific lab-type tester but he's very clear and transparent about what tests he ran and he does post benchmarks that include how the new Air stacks up with Intel Macs:


Luke Miani on MacBook Pro. Compares it to the Air, and again shows how the benchmarks line up against Intel Macs. As with the Air, note that some of the benchmarks and tests are conducted with graphics-intensive apps that have not yet been updated for Apple silicon and therefore are running via Rosetta2 emulation (Intel to Apple silicon conversion in software), and they still make good showings.

There's also a revealing comparison where he provides a comparison of the fan noise for the Intel and M1 MacBook Pros at the same point in a graphics render test.

AnandTech M1 Mac mini test:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested

ArsTechnica:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-apple-m1-a-seriously-fast-x86-competitor/

MaxTech. More subjective/impressionistic, but another data point that conforms to Miani's tests and experiences - very similar benchmark results. Also, not a fanboy review - he reveals/confirms that the fanless Air does indeed throttle because of thermals:


And Marques Brownlee, another data point that when combined with MaxTech and Miani gives further confirmation of the information and impressions in their videos:

 
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Blumlein 88

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I'm tempted to get the new Macbook Pro. But as I use my 2014 Macbook Pro it is really isn't inadequate. For heavy audio processing while recording it is a bit pushed. Or photo manipulation could be better. For any normal use like spreadsheets, web browsing and general stuff it is fine. So I don't really need it. Yet the 2014's are likely not to be included in the next big OS update, and the idea of the new super duper Pro is appealing.

What really might be more useful to me is to get Mac Mini to replace my Linux based general purpose desktop running on Lenovo server hardware. I just hate to leave the Linux world for something locked in the Apple garden for that use.
 

Vasr

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Vasr, I believe you're partially missing the point and/or willfully misrepresenting the information currently out there.
Please stop these kinds of ad hominems. I don't know why people resort to this whenever Apple is concerned. If there is any thing wrong I said just point it out. Or if you disagree with something say so.

No one is claiming the M1 - again, a chip in the entry level, bottom of the line Macs, not designed for discrete GPUs or claiming to work with discrete GPUs - is going to exceed the performance of the highest-performing CPUs with higher TDPs than 10 watts and the ability to use discrete GPUs rather than on-board graphics.
I didn't say anyone did. So that is a strawman.

I gave my assessment of relative performance compared to the chips that it has been compared with and the limitations of these tests. Which is why I mentioned the mobile AMD chip with 15W TDP as reported by Ars Technica.

I also set the limitations of what this can be compared with. It seems like anything that isn't wholly favorable to Apple is considered against Apple. :rolleyes:

Mac Mini is a desktop computer. So, it is possible to compare it with other desktops that will have discrete graphics. It seems like people want to have their lunch (it is better than a x86) and eat it too (but it is only a mobile/low-end and so cannot be compared to any x86). :)

Part of the performance gains for the M1 also comes from the powerful graphics inside compared to say Intel graphics. But lot of Intel based systems (including Apple) use discrete graphics. So, it is an Apple and Oranges comparison without considering the effect of discrete graphics especially for applications that require a lot of graphics processing. It just sets the limits of this device in context. Why does that provoke such a negative reaction?

When people just say ALL the benchmarks are pointing to high performance..
Given the multiple benchmarks and timed tests on both optimized apps and Intel-only apps, conducted by multiple reviewers, who have posted the exact benchmark numbers and test timings,
I pointed out there are only two benchmark tests that have been ported to M1 and everyone just points to these. So the above is a bit of over-selling in my opinion.

This is not going to end here like I said, passions run high for or against. And any posts for objective data and context has to fall for or against. This is very sad. I have no more to say on this.

I have a 4 post limit on Apple and Tesla threads. :D
 

tmtomh

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Please stop these kinds of ad hominems. I don't know why people resort to this whenever Apple is concerned. If there is any thing wrong I said just point it out. Or if you disagree with something say so.


I didn't say anyone did. So that is a strawman.

I gave my assessment of relative performance compared to the chips that it has been compared with and the limitations of these tests. Which is why I mentioned the mobile AMD chip with 15W TDP as reported by Ars Technica.

I also set the limitations of what this can be compared with. It seems like anything that isn't wholly favorable to Apple is considered against Apple. :rolleyes:

Mac Mini is a desktop computer. So, it is possible to compare it with other desktops that will have discrete graphics. It seems like people want to have their lunch (it is better than a x86) and eat it too (but it is only a mobile/low-end and so cannot be compared to any x86). :)

Part of the performance gains for the M1 also comes from the powerful graphics inside compared to say Intel graphics. But lot of Intel based systems (including Apple) use discrete graphics. So, it is an Apple and Oranges comparison without considering the effect of discrete graphics especially for applications that require a lot of graphics processing. It just sets the limits of this device in context. Why does that provoke such a negative reaction?

When people just say ALL the benchmarks are pointing to high performance..

I pointed out there are only two benchmark tests that have been ported to M1 and everyone just points to these. So the above is a bit of over-selling in my opinion.

This is not going to end here like I said, passions run high for or against. And any posts for objective data and context has to fall for or against. This is very sad. I have no more to say on this.

I have a 4 post limit on Apple and Tesla threads. :D

With respect, there's nothing ad hominem in my comment to you. RE the Mac mini, it is indeed a desktop - so sure, compare it to another $699 desktop on CPU performance, GPU performance, fan noise, and energy usage.
 

Blumlein 88

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With respect, there's nothing ad hominem in my comment to you. RE the Mac mini, it is indeed a desktop - so sure, compare it to another $699 desktop on CPU performance, GPU performance, fan noise, and energy usage.
Some of the Ryzen CPU's that do a little better on the benchmarks available so far cost $799 for just the CPU. Sure makes the M1 and the Mini look like a bargain for what you are getting.

We know there is some throttling in the Air, but I wonder if the Pro M1 performs equally compared to the Mini?
 

tmtomh

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Some of the Ryzen CPU's that do a little better on the benchmarks available so far cost $799 for just the CPU. Sure makes the M1 and the Mini look like a bargain for what you are getting.

We know there is some throttling in the Air, but I wonder if the Pro M1 performs equally compared to the Mini?

Indeed. Maybe you can persuade Vasr to acknowledge that without being accused of making an ad hominem attack on him.
 

Habu

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tmtomh

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Throwing another log on the fire...
The M1 debate in the video may seem polite, but those are two Canadians, so it's essentially civil war.

I've only watched the first half of the video so far (and thanks for sharing it BTW!), but what I find frustrating is that Linus has two main concerns that are valid, but also have already been significantly addressed less than 10 days after the public event.

Linus says he doesn't like Apple's vague, unlabeled graphs at the event, because:
  • Nvidia and other companies provide clearer and more specific benchmarks and graphs in their keynotes; and
  • Without saying exactly which i-series Intel chips they are comparing the M1 to - and without specifying the thermal implementation of the M1 - Apple is being misleading about performance.
But per the many videos and web links several of us have provided above, we've already seen multiple benchmarks and timed tests that provide a very specific and clear sense of how the M1 Macs measure up to Intel Macs. To the best of my knowledge, all the benchmarks can also be compared cross-platform to other manufacturer's computers as well (although of course in that case one is also comparing the optimization of the OS and the benchmark app itself as they interact with the processor, but that was always the case and has nothing to do with M1).

Similarly, there have already been tests that reveal how the combination of the one missing GPU core and the lack of active cooling impact MacBook Air performance compared to the MacBook Pro (and I presume the Mac mini, though I haven't studied the results on that model yet). The results are that the Air does throttle - minimally on shorter intensive tasks and more on longer ones, although it is worth noting that MaxTech's Cinebench testing showed that after the M1 thottles down the most, it actually throttles back up a bit in the later runs, suggesting that the M1's ability to be managed with passive cooling, while inferior to active cooling, is significantly superior to thermal management of the Intel chips it replaces - even though all those Intel chips are actively cooled. And keep in mind that based on tests so far, the M1 is thermal throttling at temps below 40 Celsius, while the Intel MacBook Air almost instantly pegs at 100 Celsius and stays there for the duration of the test, with the fan running full blast the entire time.

So Linus' complaint boils down to the fact that independent testing has to be done after Apple's keynotes in order to reveal the exact performance characteristics of their chips and hardware. To the extent he is suggesting that Apple's vagueness is hiding disappointing performance and therefore false or misleading performance claims by Apple, that is just FUD, since Apple's claims have already been shown to be substantially true.

And it's not like anyone - especially at a site like this - would look at any manufacturer's benchmarks or performance claims and say, "Oh, they are nice and specific, so we don't need to independently test the chip." I'm not going to take any manufacturer's word for it, so what the manufacturer says at a keynote is, by itself, irrelevant to me unless they are actually lying or misleading, which all the evidence so far says Apple is not doing in this case.

Now yes, it is absolutely true that many of Apple's Intel Macs do throttle significantly, in a way that would make their performance claims misleading if they were relying on graphs comparing their performance to that of PCs with the same Intel chips inside them. But that's not Apple's approach or market. As several of the MacBook Air reviews have noted, the irony of the massive performance leap the M1 chip provides is that many, maybe even most, MacBook Air buyers (and probably a good number of mini and entry-level MB Pro buyers) aren't even going to know or care about it. They will just buy the machine because it's the cheapest Mac, and they will notice it's quite snappy, and that will be the end of it.

So IMHO much of the criticism of the M1 here is about style - folks don't like that Apple is catering to a customer base that is not, as a whole, focused on performance benchmarks as much as elements of the Windows and Linux customer base. And folks don't like that Apple's performance claims are vague enough to potentially conceal major "gotchas." Fair enough.

But there is a stubborn tendency so far for some folks to ignore the data we already have and insinuate that the M1 is actually an underwhelming performer, which is false. The Intel MacBook Air, some recent Intel MacBook Pros, and I believe some Intel iMacs, are indeed underwhelming because of the thermals. But all evidence so far indicates that's simply not the case with the M1 - precisely because it is as low-wattage, cool-running, and power-efficient as Apple has designed it to be and claims it is. That's just what the evidence says so far, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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blueone

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Linus is a brilliant guy, no doubt, but I've learned to separate his accomplishments from his opinions. A few of my favorite outbursts:

"C++ is a horrible language."

"I hope AVX512 dies a painful death, and that Intel starts fixing real problems instead of trying to create magic instructions to then create benchmarks that they can look good on…"

“I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended.”

"Nvidia has been the single worst company we've ever dealt with."
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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Linus is a brilliant guy, no doubt, but I've learned to separate his accomplishments from his opinions. A few of my favorite outbursts:

"C++ is a horrible language."

"I hope AVX512 dies a painful death, and that Intel starts fixing real problems instead of trying to create magic instructions to then create benchmarks that they can look good on…"

“I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended.”

"Nvidia has been the single worst company we've ever dealt with."
@tmtomh is referring to the Youtuber, Linus Sebastian. I don't think Torvalds has anything against the M1.
 

LumbermanSVO

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I pointed out there are only two benchmark tests that have been ported to M1 and everyone just points to these. So the above is a bit of over-selling in my opinion.

I think the benchmarks from apps that haven't been ported are great for showing to the "Have fun buying new software!" people. ;)
 
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Ismapics

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Throwing another log on the fire...
The M1 debate in the video may seem polite, but those are two Canadians, so it's essentially civil war.

Linus is loosing it with Apple. First he complains that they don’t give him advanced copies of the hardware as Apple should care what he thinks. Secondly it has been proven by all the benchmarks so far that Intel systems will be soon left behind in performance. That will eventually render his channel useless. There will be no need to waste $2k on a gaming PC when an ARM system with SOC will do the same and more for a fraction. No one will care for how much Ram you can install or what grade power supply to buy. If the M1 is the weakest processor of whats next to come, Apple will be sitting on real dominance. Linus and all the other gaming channels will need to change their tune.
 

Ismapics

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The New Macs and Macs in general ditched the TossLink output on their headphone jacks long ago. Has anyone tested the sound coming out of the headphone jack on the M1 Macs? I called Apple they say since the I/O is compliant, any Thunderbolt or USB peripherals will work seamlessly.

So if the internal sound is as good or better than the $10 Thunderbolt to 3.5mm (with better test results than many higher priced DACs) dongle tested here, it could be worthy of direct connection to an amp for streaming Music. The HDMI is already said it outputs multi channel 48k like any tv box. I am curious to find out how they sound.
 
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