• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

"Better" speakers to begin with, or more "fixes" everyone knows?

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,384
Location
Seattle Area
Yep.

So the Backman paper is wrong because you said so? Or do you have a counter study?
I don't know if anything is right or wrong until you quote from it. After countless post, I still don't know what your argument is, and what you are backing it with.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,384
Location
Seattle Area
Yes, Kii is a cardioid. Disadvantages? Cost, complexity, overcoming audiophile beliefs and love affairs with boxes, the only thing they know.
Have you listened to it?
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
revel-c52-theater-response.png


Amir what methods did you use to address this in room response below 1Khz, or are you saying 2 ears can't hear that response below 1K as shown, only a mic?
The 480Hz null is inaudible (I'll assume you cut the peaks with EQ)?
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
Have you listened to it?
No yet. You?
What would that have to do with whether it might better adapt to small rooms, including perceptually?
You're figuring Bruno included gradient bass as a gimmick to sell to audiophiles?
 

h.g.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
110
Likes
8
I am curious about where the term "gradient" has come from. Am I correct in assuming it simply means multipole?
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
I still don't know what your argument is
Does controlled directivity > 500/700Hz give more consistency room to room?
I am arguing the same for LF, prior to any EQ, which is still applicable...and prior to any so called "treatment", which may then be inapplicable.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,384
Location
Seattle Area
revel-c52-theater-response.png


Amir what methods did you use to address this in room response below 1Khz, or are you saying 2 ears can't hear that response below 1K as shown, only a mic?
The purpose of this graph, and careful measurement parameters used address the part in red. That is, the response below 200 Hz and large peak and dip there. This is an 80 Hz crossed over response without the sub playing.

You cannot and must not attempt to interpret the graph as is for frequencies higher. They do not represent what you hear.
The 480Hz null is inaudible (I'll assume you cut the peaks with EQ)?
Per above you can't use the graph I provided for this type of analysis. You need to match the resolution of the ear. We simply cannot hear those troughs as frequencies go up as shown. The measurement graph needs to be adapted to frequency resolution of the ear. Here is a measurement (different than above as I can't find that one) with two graphs: one at 1/24 octave resolution and the other, 1/6 octave:
Filtering Differences.png


A lot of the "grass" that is visible at 1/24 octave disappears and rightly so as we can't hear the waveform with that kind of resolution.

EQ can selectively be applied to hundreds of hertz but care must be taken to make sure the outcome is positive. Parametric EQ systems allow this easily. Pull down the peak at 600 Hz and see if you like it better. And yes, you first pull down all the peaks before worrying about any dips.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,384
Location
Seattle Area
Does controlled directivity > 500/700Hz give more consistency room to room?
I am arguing the same for LF, prior to any EQ, which is still applicable...and prior to any so called "treatment", which may then be inapplicable.
I ask you what your point of view is and you ask me a question??? Take your time. Post a few paragraphs with backing reference explaining what message you are trying to get across.
 

h.g.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
110
Likes
8
Thanks for the link. From the abstract it looks like almost but not quite the same. Multipoles would conventionally mean a spatial orientation of the poles, a distance between them and an amplitude (usually lumped together) but the phase would only be plus or minus. The relative phase between the poles in the abstract seems to be a parameter.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,368
Likes
234,384
Location
Seattle Area

h.g.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
110
Likes
8
There we go again. Do you expect him to have an AES subscription to follow what you are saying??? Why it is so hard for you to spend the time quoting what you want out of these links? Do you not have access to them yourself?
Providing references is normal in a technical discussion. It answered my question about where the term probably came from and that it means a more generalized multipole sound source. For what it is worth I do not have access to the journal from home but can get access to it should it be sufficiently interesting. In this case it is not.
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
It answered my question about where the term probably came from and that it means a more generalized multipole sound source.
Yes. I believe Olson had coined the term in the 50s with his original papers. The one I linked sheds a bit more detail. It's short for 1st order gradient. Multipoles like cardioids, hyper-cardioids, dipoles, etc. Ways of creating directional control, including bass. Its an old concept. Just extremely rare in "high end" home fashion jewelry/audio industry.
I'm sure you're seeing more of it in the pro world http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2014/subs_june2014/
 

Fitzcaraldo215

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
1,440
Likes
632
Yes. I believe Olson had coined the term in the 50s with his original papers. The one I linked sheds a bit more detail. It's short for 1st order gradient. Multipoles like cardioids, hyper-cardioids, dipoles, etc. Ways of creating directional control, including bass. Its an old concept. Just extremely rare in "high end" home fashion jewelry/audio industry.
I'm sure you're seeing more of it in the pro world http://www.aes-media.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2014/subs_june2014/


I hate to say this, AJ, but you have totally lost me in this thread and others, not just with the post I quoted. That, plus, I am getting totally burned out on the photo in post after post. It is annoying, partly because of the simple repetiveness, repetiveness, ... of your posts. You seem to have wanted to win the "frequent poster" championship, which is actually nothing at all to be esteemed or admired. To the contrary, it merely shows that you have failed to communicate and to convince most others of your point of view or of your expertise. So, you redouble your efforts, your arguments and your posts, but to no avail.

I hate to take sides here, but I can logically follow Amir and others in their technical arguments because they make a serious effort to actually communicate. On other hand, you seem to be name, concept and link dropping without a coherent sense of whether or not it is meaningful and comes across. So, you appear to be arguing for argument's sake or to "win" for your often esoteric point of view, to the extent it is comprehensible. But, you are not winning.

You have raised the occasional issue or question worth taking note of amid all the other trivia, or so it comes across. But, if you have a product to sell, if this is part of a marketing push, I fail to be impressed. To the contrary.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,050
Likes
12,148
Location
London
On the contrary I find the whole argument interesting , the idea that ther might be 'another' way should be explored , it is only natural to support a concept if you believe in it.
Keith.
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
I hate to say this, AJ, but you have totally lost me
That's not unusual, especially with ingrained beliefs.

But, if you have a product to sell, if this is part of a marketing push, I fail to be impressed.
I peddle Gradient Revolutions. I'm trying to undercut Amirs Revel Salon sales, but I guess you're not buying. Oh well.:)
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
On the contrary I find the whole argument interesting , the idea that ther might be 'another' way should be explored , it is only natural to support a concept if you believe in it.
Yep, that's all I'm saying. Not the best, greatest, easiest, etc. Just another approach, for those who may not want an iso-ward and listen to classical/jazz type music. Plus I'm energy conscious/Green :).

"EQ cannot fix speaker directivity" - Dr Floyd Toole

cheers,

AJ
 

h.g.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
110
Likes
8
I hate to say this, AJ, but you have totally lost me in this thread and others, not just with the post I quoted. [...]

I hate to take sides here, but I can logically follow Amir and others in their technical arguments because they make a serious effort to actually communicate. [,,,]
Interesting. I am more the other way round. I can see where AJ is coming from even if I am not always 100% aligned. What to do from 40/80Hz to 300/500Hz is an interesting question.

Amir is putting in a lot of effort to get things going quickly and more power to his elbow. But he tends to view things in the vague, imprecise and at times invented manner of an audiophile rather than say a physics teacher and that causes difficulties at times. Poking him in another thread suggests he is not going to question this sort of thing. He may well be right in not doing so given the majority of his audience and that it would slow things down greatly if he did.
 
OP
AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
Interesting. I am more the other way round. I can see where AJ is coming from even if I am not always 100% aligned. What to do from 40/80Hz to 300/500Hz is an interesting question.
It's not uncommon when these technical arguments go over audiophiles heads, like Fitz, that they side with the "personality" they can best relate to.
For example there is no way for Fitz to understand the conflict here:
Tell me how you got a "null" at 400 Hz. Do you know the concept of modal density?
revel-c52-theater-response.png

Figure 1: Measured response of the left channel speaker showing large variation in frequency response (1/12 octave smoothing).
:eek:
Amir, whats going on there at 480 Hz???
The lateralisation type stuff is obviously insurmountable for the casual reader as well.
No problem really, this is all just discussion.

cheers

AJ
 
Top Bottom