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Revel F328Be Speaker Review

andreasmaaan

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I think Amir did his best but the measurements don't reflect the bass behaviour. Those frequencies must be very hard to measure especially with multiple woofers and ports. I wonder why three 8'' woofers wouldn't give as much in the bass area as the two of the F226Be.

The most likely explanations IMHO (if not measurement error) would be all/any of the following:
  • Those three 8" woofers of the F328 require a larger box than Revel was willing to put them in to extend lower than the two 6" woofers of the F226 in its not-much-smaller enclosure.
  • Revel prioritised sensitivity over bass extension.
  • Revel designers believe that a floorstanding speaker with a bass response that gently rolls off below ≈100Hz provides better overall performance in-room.
I find it harder to explain why we see that 2-3dB downward shelf below ≈200Hz, however.

Regarding measurement error, I doubt the reality is significantly different from what we're seeing here. The Klippel should be reasonably accurate, particularly given the extra care taken in this case. According to Amir in the OP, the margin of error should be no greater than +/-1dB.

Having said that, I'm no expert on the Klippel.
 

hardisj

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Exactly. The data are the information.

100% agree.

I feel that boiling all the data down to a single value is ... well, asinine, if I am being painfully honest. From an engineering perspective I could see designing a speaker via software and then using the calculation to see where on the spectrum of values that score might fall. If it's below 5, toss it and move on. But when you are looking at the overall performance, IMHO, boiling it down to a single number is a disservice to the effort it takes to measure the speaker. At that rate, one could make the argument that all you need is a windowed-average of the response.
 

st379

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Well, for one, scoring doesn't factor in sensitivity/output capability, AFAIK.


Personally, I put zero stock in the preference score. I think it's more of a "we have the data, we might as well see what it results in" exercise and really shouldn't be a go-by other than to weed out very poor performers (at best).

Again, all IMHO. I don't want to derail the topic as this is beaten to death in nearly every thread (but, all the more reason why I ignore the score).
If we are going this way so what is the difference between this site and whathifi and streophile? If we can't trust the measurements it is a massive issue. It is all down to personal taste like any other site.
 

hardisj

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@hardisj question: for 16k€ you will buy a passive speakers with roll of in the bass or a kii three or D&D?


I think there's a case for either.

I do like the idea of a distributed array of subwoofers, though, over a set of speakers to cover 20-20k. But I don't wanna get OT.
 

hardisj

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If we are going this way so what is the difference between this site and whathifi and streophile? If we can't trust the measurements it is a massive issue. It is all down to personal taste like any other site.

Whaaaaaaat?

I'm talking about a single metric value being assigned to convey the performance of a 3-Dimensional speaker.

If I didn't believe in measurements at all then I wouldn't spend days of my own time conducting them as well.
 

waynel

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I wouldn’t stress so much about the low frequency aspect of your measurement, Amir. My measurements of the F226Be were done using ground plane method at 2m and then 4m for sanity check and both resulted in a mild step in response from 200Hz to 100Hz similar to your results here.
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/revel_f226be/

View attachment 92747
I'm thinking that a combination of Klippel measurements and ground plane measurements (below 200Hz or so) would get us a clearer picture of the bass response. Floor standing speakers and subs could be measured on the floor, monitors measured on appropriate stands.
The Rythmik L12 review proves that the Klippel system can correctly measure a simple sealed source. All (I think) of the ported floorstanding speakers that Amir measured did not achieve the low frequency extension in their specifications. Maybe a correction needs to be applied for boundary reinforcement that is implicit in all floor standing designs, similar to the low frequency correction applied to anechoic chamber measurements?
 

stevenswall

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I would probably get these over Salon 2 because they are a new design, they look great, and they are priced more competitively.

What about the sound though? Just looking for something "good enough" that looks nice? These make the Genelec 8341 look like a bargain.

Yeah, I went back and looked at the 8341 review, and it is a bit better. Odd that the Genelec extends deeper, I assume some of that is just dsp? The Revel also has a wider beamwidth, which some might prefer.

Does DSP/and active crossover sound different than just a passive crossover designed for more extension, just a larger box, or just a driver to go deeper? This should be a lesson to speaker makers: Use active crossovers and DSP when possible.

The Genelec is still more tonally balanced, even though it needs to be viewed under a microscope. And while Amir mentions the issues with measured bass performance, the Genelec still likely extends deeper. The Revel of course will get louder and have less distortion.


Below is a comparison with a really squished x-axis of the two.
View attachment 92654

This seems to confirm my bias that Genelec has somehow beaten Harman at their own game, perhaps with fewer resources. Maybe the Salon 2 has wider dispersion and would beat the 8341... then I'll want to see the 8260 which has wider dispersion than the 8341 and goes deeper.

Never thought I'd consider Genelec good price/performance wise for those who don't need high SPL.
 

MZKM

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It makes no sense to me why Revel would design a tower speaker with 3x 8” woofers to start rolling off bass at 100hz,
Does no one recall the previous Revel measurements? The tower versions had the same bass extension as the bookshelves; the additional woofers were to increase sensitivity only.
 

Lorenzo74

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I think there's a case for either.

I do like the idea of a distributed array of subwoofers, though, over a set of speakers to cover 20-20k. But I don't wanna get OT.

apologize, already asked... when you @hardisj will help us understanding how to use multiple subs (cardioid setup with dsp or simply placed in room corner)? or leave us in the hands of mighty Dirac fix all?
nothing on the web, many would love it... many thumbs up, ;)
 

Absolute

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I don't find the roll-off particularly strange. It's quite normal to design in a small roll-off from around 100 hz to ensure a balanced sound in-room.
The cut-off point is probably chosen to maintain sensitivity and room-friendliness.
Edit; I see the good people @andreasmaaan and @MZKM beat me to it.

Whether or not there's a decibel too little or too much below 200 hz matters nothing once out in a real room anyway, so for low bass frequencies I'm mostly interested in distortion/capacity. With no subs intended, I'd be interested in the -6 dB point as well.
 

stevenswall

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Even Sean Olive has moved on from it, if I understood correctly. If you look that the site that collects them, the notes state: "aspects such as sensitivity, distortion, difficulty to drive, max SPL, etc. are not factored in."

Sensitivity doesn't change the sound. Add or remove power as needed. It's more available and affordable than at any point in human history. If the impedance curve of the drivers is changing the sensitivity at certain frequencies, use a DSP to compensate.

Distortion isn't taken into account? Didn't know that. So long as it's not audible, and it doesn't seem to be for most speakers I listen to, maybe it's a minor issue for those who don't need high SPL levels. This I think should most be included in the score if it's affecting things. Maybe a second mic that measures what else is happening at frequencies other than the one being played, and if it's barely audible, the have it act as if at that frequency, the speaker is 1dB less accurate.

Difficulty to drive is a non issue with a properly engineered active monitor.

Max SPL wise, there aren't many I've heard that don't go loud enough in the typical homes I'm in, but I could see this being useful in a score to know what the capabilities are in larger rooms.
 

Chromatischism

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I bet if one took an in-room frequency response, from multiple positions, Dirac Live style, this speaker would be quite very smooth and very linear down to C1 (33Hz).
I doubt it, because of the room. We've seen over and over again what happens to the bass when you put two speakers in a room and set them up for imaging. You will never get flat and smooth bass - free of any interference - from two speakers unless the room is beyond the size of a normal house. But with subs, you can completely eliminate that, even in small rooms.
 

stevenswall

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I doubt it, because of the room. We've seen over and over again what happens to the bass when you put two speakers in a room and set them up for imaging. You will never get flat and smooth bass - free of any interference - from two speakers unless the room is beyond the size of a normal house. But with subs, you can completely eliminate that, even in small rooms.

What if you put 4 large studio monitors in the corners of the room? Wouldn't that take care of a lot? (Many people like to "bring them out from the walls" but Genelec has the measurements to show how that causes more comb filtering and should be avoided.)
 

Chromatischism

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apologize, already asked... when you @hardisj will help us understanding how to use multiple subs (cardioid setup with dsp or simply placed in room corner)? or leave us in the hands of mighty Dirac fix all?
nothing on the web, many would love it... many thumbs up, ;)
I would give up on cardioid. It's an interesting idea, but the trade-offs aren't worth it IMO.
 

Chromatischism

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What if you put 4 large studio monitors in the corners of the room? Wouldn't that take care of a lot? (Many people like to "bring them out from the walls" but Genelec has the measurements to show how that causes more comb filtering and should be avoided.)
A bass source (synced to one channel) in 4 corners is one of Harman's top placements. If you don't have EQ though, forget about it.
 

Kal Rubinson

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If we can't trust the measurements it is a massive issue. It is all down to personal taste like any other site.
No one has said that they cannot trust the measurements but agglomerating them into a single index, imho, is arbitrary.
 

Chromatischism

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What are their trade-offs?
From what I remember when I researched this a year or two ago, you lose a lot of SPL making it work. I guess if you aren't doing movies you may not mind.

At any rate, we have a better way to "make the room disappear" with subs: placed strategically and equalized together (ala Sound Field Management, Audyssey, Dirac, Multisub Optimizer, etc).
 
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andreasmaaan

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What if you put 4 large studio monitors in the corners of the room? Wouldn't that take care of a lot?

Strictly speaking, your bass response would tend to be smoothest if you placed the four speakers in the centre of each wall.

It would still not be very smooth without equalisation, though.

(Many people like to "bring them out from the walls" but Genelec has the measurements to show how that causes more comb filtering and should be avoided.)

Do you have a link to this, please? I think I saw something from Genelec on this some time ago, but if it's what I'm thinking of, I wasn't convinced ;)
 
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