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Audiophile vs Pro Speakers

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watchnerd

watchnerd

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Replay of true mono material over stereo speakers gives the most clearcut distinction in how image "shifting" operates, showing the relationship between quality of playback and the compensation mechanism of the hearing of at least some people.

With conventional quality, there is a phantom image midway between the speakers - if you move sideways there will be a point where the sound "dives" into the nearest speaker - there is a very clear boundary point where this switches on, or off.

With high enough quality, that boundary point is never found; the phantom image tracks your position as you move sideways - that is, the image "shifts" so that it appears to always remain "in front of you" - the tracking operates per your position with respect to speakers, and not to where the speakers happen to be - the phantom image is not constrained to be midway between the speakers.

You don't need to invent new terms of art / invent your personal lexicon to explain this.

What you're describing isn't a matter of "quality", whatever that nebulously means, it can be explained using standard terms regarding dispersion, time delays, etc.
 

fas42

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You don't need to invent new terms of art / invent your personal lexicon to explain this.

What you're describing isn't a matter of "quality", whatever that nebulously means, it can be explained using standard terms regarding dispersion, time delays, etc.
If it only were that simple ... o_O

In the systems I have dealt with over the years, dispersion, time delays,etc, vary not one iota between the system when producing the varying aural illusions - no movement of speakers occurs, fiddling with room aspects, anything which would produce a variance in conventional measuring.

The "quality" that matters is the level of audible artifacts which mask low level information, detail in the recording - if too great, the brain can't reconstruct the missing parts of the recording's content - if you want a "better expression", try "excessive non-random noise".
 
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watchnerd

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If it only were that simple ... o_O

In the systems I have dealt with over the years, dispersion, time delays,etc, vary not one iota between the system when producing the varying aural illusions - no movement of speakers occurs, fiddling with room aspects, anything which would produce a variance in conventional measuring.

The "quality" that matters is the level of audible artifacts which mask low level information, detail in the recording - if too great, the brain can't reconstruct the missing parts of the recording's content - if you want a "better expression", try "excessive non-random noise".

Come on, @fas42...given the amount of research into SRS, HRTF, multiple surround formats, crossfeed, etc, do you really think you have some special insight into the causes of stereo imaging, positive and negative, that isn't already known to the literature?
 

fas42

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Come on, @fas42...given the amount of research into SRS, HRTF, multiple surround formats, crossfeed, etc, do you really think you have some special insight into the causes of stereo imaging, positive and negative, that isn't already known to the literature?
Well, that seems to be the case ... the big problem is, that only a very high standard of replay, in key areas, makes it happen - so the normal researchers would be oblivious to it, since the equipment they use is fairly standard in terms of their capability - and they just haven't stumbled across it. When I first experienced it, I thought, how come no-one told me this could happen - surely this would be a behaviour that the audio enthusiasts would be aware of? But no - I religiously perused the audio press for years, but never a mention ...

But I kept my ears open, :D, and discovered about a half dozen people who one way or the other had experienced it, to date ... so, I'm not alone!

What I'm finding interesting is that Linkwitz, as a recognised audio identity, is probably the closest to seeing the big picture - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/The_Magic/The_Magic.htm. The diagram in figure 11 is very close to the subjective presentation I'm talking about - just copy the "ellipses" of sound as seen by the central listener in (a) , and paste over the non-optimal pattern heard by the off-axis listener in (b), to understand the full blown expression of the behaviour.
 
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Well, that seems to be the case ... the big problem is, that only a very high standard of replay, in key areas, makes it happen - so the normal researchers would be oblivious to it, since the equipment they use is fairly standard in terms of their capability - and they just haven't stumbled across it. When I first experienced it, I thought, how come no-one told me this could happen - surely this would be a behaviour that the audio enthusiasts would be aware of? But no - I religiously perused the audio press for years, but never a mention ...

But I kept my ears open, :D, and discovered about a half dozen people who one way or the other had experienced it, to date ... so, I'm not alone!

What I'm finding interesting is that Linkwitz, as a recognised audio identity, is probably the closest to seeing the big picture - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/The_Magic/The_Magic.htm. The diagram in figure 11 is very close to the subjective presentation I'm talking about - just copy the "ellipses" of sound as seen by the central listener in (a) , and paste over the non-optimal pattern heard by the off-axis listener in (b), to understand the full blown expression of the behaviour.

I find it ironic that you're quoting Linkwitz who agrees with my points about directivity being a prime cause:

"A small lateral shift from the sweet spot shifts the whole auditory scene in the direction of the shift and for a listener off to the side the scene essentially collapses into the near loudspeaker. Little is heard from the other speaker. For highly directional speakers this effect can be reduced to some extent by toe-in."
 

oivavoi

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Yap, Linkwitz claims that this is a result of the directionality of the speakers.
 

j_j

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With high enough quality, that boundary point is never found; the phantom image tracks your position as you move sideways - that is, the image "shifts" so that it appears to always remain "in front of you" - the tracking operates per your position with respect to speakers, and not to where the speakers happen to be - the phantom image is not constrained to be midway between the speakers.

So, you've found a way to overcome the ITD sensitivity of the ear using a speaker? I don't believe it. I just don't.

What you CAN do is have a signal with absolutely no direct sound at all, and as such you're reduced to only level cues. But now you've just gotten rid of a whole bunch of perceptual cues. Then again, if the recording is panpotted (which is always a bad thing regardless of "conventional wisdom" as can be trivially shown by a near-coincident recording) it might not mattter.

So, for a particular combination of speakers that mask soundfield cues COMBINED WITH a bad recording, maybe.
 

fas42

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I find it ironic that you're quoting Linkwitz who agrees with my points about directivity being a prime cause:

"A small lateral shift from the sweet spot shifts the whole auditory scene in the direction of the shift and for a listener off to the side the scene essentially collapses into the near loudspeaker. Little is heard from the other speaker. For highly directional speakers this effect can be reduced to some extent by toe-in."
Did I say he had full understanding ?? ... there is a continuum in how much the sweet spot widens, depending upon directivity and all the usual factors talked about - which is the environment most ambitious rigs work in; Linkwitz is just pushing those boundaries more than most. When I'm tweaking a system this is the zone that I'm working in; I'm listening for how that "magic" area varies, as well as for anomalies.

Again, there is a "snapping" into place of the full illusion - it is a 'light switch' change. What Linkwitz is describing is right on the edge of that switch occurring - one day he may hear it, when absolutely everything just happens in a fine enough state of tune to cause the "crossover". As I've mentioned many times, this is precisely how it happened for me - and I could make the system switchover to this standard repetitively.

Once you can make something happen once, curiosity bites - what are the necessary conditions? Turns out to be the things I keep mentioning - and surprisingly unambitous replay setups can be prodded to be "good enough", which is a mighty good thing to know.
 

oivavoi

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Did I say he had full understanding ?? ... there is a continuum in how much the sweet spot widens, depending upon directivity and all the usual factors talked about - which is the environment most ambitious rigs work in; Linkwitz is just pushing those boundaries more than most. When I'm tweaking a system this is the zone that I'm working in; I'm listening for how that "magic" area varies, as well as for anomalies.

Again, there is a "snapping" into place of the full illusion - it is a 'light switch' change. What Linkwitz is describing is right on the edge of that switch occurring - one day he may hear it, when absolutely everything just happens in a fine enough state of tune to cause the "crossover". As I've mentioned many times, this is precisely how it happened for me - and I could make the system switchover to this standard repetitively.

Once you can make something happen once, curiosity bites - what are the necessary conditions? Turns out to be the things I keep mentioning - and surprisingly unambitous replay setups can be prodded to be "good enough", which is a mighty good thing to know.

If this "snapping into place" magic indeed is so rare, elusive and difficult to obtain, the alternative option of course is to just go and listen to som live acoustic music instead.
 

fas42

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So, you've found a way to overcome the ITD sensitivity of the ear using a speaker? I don't believe it. I just don't.

What you CAN do is have a signal with absolutely no direct sound at all, and as such you're reduced to only level cues. But now you've just gotten rid of a whole bunch of perceptual cues. Then again, if the recording is panpotted (which is always a bad thing regardless of "conventional wisdom" as can be trivially shown by a near-coincident recording) it might not mattter.

So, for a particular combination of speakers that mask soundfield cues COMBINED WITH a bad recording, maybe.
As I said, it is rare - but not unique. I had a long exchange with an individual on another forum, where we swapped notes - as a subjective experience, identical. What is remarkable is that the hearing seems to have a trigger point, when listening to conventional stero output - it's not a smooth transition. If it were the latter then a lot more people who would have some awareness of the behaviour - and it would have been investigated more.

The quality of the recording only seems to matter in the sense that some may trigger the playback system to add more distortion, just enough to disrupt the illusion. But otherwise, every recording delivers that subjective experience.
 

fas42

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If this "snapping into place" magic indeed is so rare, elusive and difficult to obtain, the alternative option of course is to just go and listen to som live acoustic music instead.
Indeed ... but the advantage of pushing a system to this point is that improvements in tonality go hand in hand with this happening. When it occurred the first time for me I had zero interest in imaging - I was concentrating on eliminating audible abberations in the playback - it was my goal at that moment to remove all the irritating, slight distortions I was picking up.
 

fas42

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Since ITD was menetioned, again, I was interested in whether more recent research had come with anything - and came across this '87 paper, which is often cited: "Aiming attention in pitch and time in the perception of interleaved melodies" - Dowling, W.J., Lung, K., Herbold, S. . What registered for me was a summary elsewhere, where the concept of auditory grouping is mentioned. In particular,

Effect of past experience:
– Experiment by Dowling
• Used two interleaved melodies (“Three Blind Mice” and “Mary
Had a Little Lamb”)
• Listeners reported hearing a meaningless jumble of notes
• But listeners who were told to listen for the melodies were able
to hear them by using melody schema

These schemas seem to be the mechanism that's at work, for the illusion I talk of. A relatively incapable replay of a recording presents interleaved “Three Blind Mice” and “MaryHad a Little Lamb” as a "meaningless jumble of notes" - but a competent playback presents them as two melodies in the space in front of you - and it's quite easy to switch focus between one melody or the other; their interleaving doesn't matter, you can "see" one or the other at will.

The confusion of the interleaving is never resolved when replay is too low a standard - when high enough, the schemas operate at all times - and allow subjective resolving of the aural data, continually.
 

RayDunzl

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Say, do you think the speaker(s) - JBL's- may be miswired...polarity reversed, possibly?

Measurement doesn't indicate any mechanical problem or difference between the two speakers.
 

Analog Scott

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If this "snapping into place" magic indeed is so rare, elusive and difficult to obtain, the alternative option of course is to just go and listen to som live acoustic music instead.
Did that the other night. Amazing performance. the "imaging" was horrible. As was the overall sound quality. Such a shame. An orchestra considered by many to be the premier orchestra in the world. IMO the best classical pianist to ever walk the earth and horrible concert hall acoustics. But an amazing night of music despite the crap sound.
 

Blumlein 88

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I don't quite think that sunk in. It's only by disturbing essential soundfield cues that you stand a chance. There is a better way, but not with 2 speakers.

j_j do you know much about the immersive sound formats now out like Atmos? Do they make some sense or just an effect? Would the PSR work as well or better with fewer channels?
 

oivavoi

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Did that the other night. Amazing performance. the "imaging" was horrible. As was the overall sound quality. Such a shame. An orchestra considered by many to be the premier orchestra in the world. IMO the best classical pianist to ever walk the earth and horrible concert hall acoustics. But an amazing night of music despite the crap sound.

I mostly find that large acoustic orchestras in concert halls don't "image" at all. You get a basic sense of direction, that's all. The only time acoustic ensembeles properly "image" is when the ensemble is very small and one sits close to the players. Audiophile imaging is artificial, but it's a useful artifact because it compensates for the lack of visual cues that are there in a live situation.
 

Analog Scott

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I mostly find that large acoustic orchestras in concert halls don't "image" at all. You get a basic sense of direction, that's all. The only time acoustic ensembeles properly "image" is when the ensemble is very small and one sits close to the players. Audiophile imaging is artificial, but it's a useful artifact because it compensates for the lack of visual cues that are there in a live situation.
It certainly depends on the acoustics, where you sit and of course....what you see. Night before last was at Guangzhou Opera House. This hall pretty much has the acoustics of most home bathrooms. To add to that the orchestra did not use risers so you could not see past the first row of musicians. In some concert halls you can get a pretty clear sense of imaging due to better audible clarity and better sight lines. At my favorite concert hall, Disney Hall there is never a "sense" of poor imaging from anywhere other than the balcony and the terrace view sections. The sight lines are excellent and the acoustics are a perfect combination of reverb and clarity. A rare combination.

an interesting side note for vidoephiles. The concert was shot on 8K cameras.
 

j_j

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j_j do you know much about the immersive sound formats now out like Atmos? Do they make some sense or just an effect? Would the PSR work as well or better with fewer channels?

I dare say I do not comment on current commercial enterprises. My thoughts can be found in a few papers, and some tutorials I've given. I'll say that much.
 
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