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Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

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Koeitje

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I'd add distortion as the number one cause. That is, loudspeaker distortion. With super low distortion loudspeakers (which are usually highly sensitive by design, and larger in form factor) you can damage your hearing before you realize that they are playing too loud. That is because the overall distortion is so low.
Ah yes, loudspeaker distortion is really fatiguing.
 

Matias

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In my experience, Class A is really a marketing fool ... I mean tool. I had one of those Yamaha amps with the Class A switch on the front panel and frankly, at low power levels, couldn't tell any difference from flipping the switch. Why pay more for less?

I'd add distortion as the number one cause. That is, loudspeaker distortion. With super low distortion loudspeakers (which are usually highly sensitive by design, and larger in form factor) you can damage your hearing before you realize that they are playing too loud. That is because the overall distortion is so low.

I agree. Below is the XA200.8, latest version of a huge class A amplifier from legendary Pass Labs.

Look at its power x THD+N graph in 4 ohms (Fig. 5). Best case it does 0.0042% (SINAD 88) at 1W, while the Hypex nCore NC2K does about SINAD 95 in 1W and its best case is SINAD 102 at 10W (0.0008% THD+N).

So the Pass class A amp has more distortion, less power, larger, heavier, more expensive (42k usd) and heats up the listening room while increasing the energy bill. Surely it sounds great, but is it worth it?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa2008-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

818Passfig05.jpg
 

Feanor

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I agree. Below is the XA200.8, latest version of a huge class A amplifier from legendary Pass Labs.

Look at its power x THD+N graph in 4 ohms (Fig. 5). Best case it does 0.0042% (SINAD 88) at 1W, while the Hypex nCore NC2K does about SINAD 95 in 1W and its best case is SINAD 102 at 10W (0.0008% THD+N).

So the Pass class A amp has more distortion, less power, larger, heavier, more expensive (42k usd) and heats up the listening room while increasing the energy bill. Surely it sounds great, but is it worth it?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-xa2008-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

View attachment 88890
Yes, it's true, Pass Labs amps aren't particularly low distortion, not even the A/B versions.

In fairness to Nelson Pass, however, we ought to allow that Pass' tacit goal isn't minimum distortion, it's distortion spectrum that produces the sound he likes. I note that a few years ago John Atkinson said the similar XA60.5 design was the best sounding amplifier he had ever heard, so we may conclude that Pass is successful at least to some ears.

I recently sold my Pass X150.5, (class A/B), because I felt it wasn't worth the money I had tied up in it. Presently I'm using a Hypex NC252MP-based amp, (1/10 the MSRP), which is similar to the Pass in bass and dynamics, does lack the Pass' touch of warmth, but is actually a bit more transparent.
 

March Audio

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I don't understand why you're being so defensive, why not see this as an opportunity and start offering modules with upgraded capacitors for a little extra, sounds like an excellent business proposition to me. Then the end user can decide for themselves if they think the cheap caps will be just fine or they'd rather pay an additional $50+ to get modules with premium caps. You could even offer DIY cap kits for those who like to swing their own solder iron.
Its not being defensive. Its correcting misconceptions and inaccurate information.

Selling snake oil, things that are of no benefit, is not what I'm about.
 

March Audio

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@restorer-john makes a good point in the Rolls Royce engine comparison. World-class products use world-class materials and components almost without exception. The analogy to some hifi gear is fair, especially for some of the vintage stuff.

@March Audio makes a good point too; you don't need to exceed your own specifications, and it would be a waste of money to do so.

An aerospace company has specs that require top-end components proven out by rigorous testing, usually of every batch, down to the screws. A military helicopter radio that sounds like a cheap AM radio can cost $30k (or more), but it will probably be reliable, and it will definitely have good components.

I don't have a big problem with say and NC400 module being essentially disposable at its price, but I don't have any illusion it is Rockwell Collins. I don't have any illusion it is TOTL hifi either. I think of the whole module as a replaceable component.

I agree, in a $2k+ amp, I would want good caps too, and I wouldn't buy this. I would buy a less expensive stereo NC400 or something similar though.
John only made the comment because he knows I used to work for Rolls Royce Aero engines. The comparison is false because the requirements are completely different. Its absolutely essential that an engine doesn't fail for obvious reasons. They still do fail from time to time BTW regardless of all the quality control and "premium" manufacturing/components.

A domestic amplifier is a different proposition. To design an amp that's absolutely reliable for 50 years would significantly increase cost. For the vast majority of consumers its of no relevance and a cost they don't want.
 

jtwrace

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Comparing an amplifier to any Aerospace component is completely asinine. Why don't we use Inconel heatsinks too while we're at it. :facepalm:
 

CDMC

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It seem like in the argument over what caps Hypex should be using skips a few basic logical steps from a manufacture point of view:
  • What is the the actual change in BOM cost?
  • How much does the change in BOM cost affect the final selling price on the wholesale market?
  • What is the pricing of our competitions' equivalent modules (Icepower, Purfi, Pascal)?
  • What is the market for a premium version with better capacitors?
We are an extremely small part of the market (and when I say we, I mean like minded individuals to ASR and companies like Apollon, March, Audiophonics, and Nord). The real market is OEMs which are extremely cost conscious. Most consumers could care less what capacitors are in their amplifier and a slightly greater number are concerned about the brand of the module. Most consumers buy on price and name recognition. How many of PS Audio's customers do you really think know or care about what Class D module or capacitors are used? The answer is a small minority. The same goes for the vast majority of McIntosh, NAD, Yamaha, Bluesound, Sonos and other brand consumers.

It is important that we remember, we are not the market, we are a very small minority of the market. Here, because we are like minded, it makes it appear like we are a much larger part of the market than we are, as we have a bit of an echo chamber.
 

jtwrace

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I think it's really important to look at Hypex's biggest and main target market. Pro Audio. These modules are beat on with weather conditions and travel so bad so sitting on an audio rack is nothing to them. It's foolish IMO to think that any armchair engineering is better than what Hypex is doing. They've been doing this for many years and quite frankly, do an incredible job at it too.
 

Jake71

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...Selling snake oil, things that are of no benefit, is not what I'm about.

I think you are confusing snake oil coupling caps with common sense electrolytic caps. There is nothing snake oil about using good quality brand name electrolytic capacitors, ask any repair technician if they prefer cheap chinese caps over quality japanese ones. You already know the answer to this one.
 

Vasr

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You would have to purchase the rights to use the design and manufacture your own boards or come to some arrangement with Hypex. A costly exercise unless you are selling a very significant number of units.

Removing and replacing caps from existing boards will invalidate the Hypex warranty and runs the risk of actually degrading reliability due to that removal/replacement process.
I can understand the above as a logistics problem for the integrator given the dependence on Hypex. But the criticism would apply to Hypex itself. Besides, there are other caps in the unit under the control of the integrator.
All for something that has yet to be demonstrated as a problem
This is just "talking the book" because you don't have a practical choice. After all, your marketing claims
...heavy duty solid copper gold plated ETI Research speaker binding posts. High quality Canare speaker cable and Mogami signal cable is used internally providing the best signal integrity and shielding...
One could claim a non "audiophile" brand lower quality connector and cable (not going into extreme examples) will do just as well here and the above is not solving any "demonstrated problem" (other than potentially cherry-picking data) and is as much an argument against your "over-engineering", "more than necessary". "these don't need to last 20-30 years", etc arguments which seem like rationalizations for something you are unable to do. If Hypex were to produce modules with high-quality brand capacitors, that would become a line in your marketing blurb too. It would no longer be "snake-oil" then. That was my point.
We all know John wants his HiFi to last 50 years but technology is moving on at a faster and faster pace. You may not like it but how many of todays hifi products will be relevant in 20 years?
That is a specious argument. These things have an impact on the used market in the next decade as well with an impact on resale prices. All it takes is some data points to emerge of cap failures in Hypex modules and the prices will drop like a rock (happened to Adcom) not to mention the reputation. The fact it hasn't yet shown itself to be a problem isn't a guarantee it won't in the future. Hypex may have moved on to other designs and components by then but that isn't a solution for people who purchased them. The QC control differences between capacitors and consequences isn't a myth as I pointed out in PSUs.

There is also pride of ownership issues in these things. People buy top quality component gizmos ot because they are necessarily counting on it to last 50 years but owning such builds gives them satisfaction and pride. It applies to connectors, chassis, cables or capacitors. Separating between them as "necessary" and "snake-oil" based on your constraints is just "talking the book" in my opinion.
 

psydave

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We are charging around 500 Euros to recap all modules with better caps for a stereo Hypex based amp (NC400, NC500, NC1200, NC2K). This procedure takes a lot of time and we use the best professional desoldering tools from Weller to do this job. It is very time consuming so a standard practice to all production would be impossible but I will talk with Hypex about the possibility of making customs modules for us with better caps.

I don't understand why you're being so defensive, why not see this as an opportunity and start offering modules with upgraded capacitors for a little extra, sounds like an excellent business proposition to me. Then the end user can decide for themselves if they think the cheap caps will be just fine or they'd rather pay an additional $50+ to get modules with premium caps. You could even offer DIY cap kits for those who like to swing their own solder iron.

I'm not sure where you are getting $50 price when Apollon has quoted 500 Euros for better caps. Increasing a product price 20% for no performance gain and the potential for better reliability is not something most manufacturers would be interested in and I seriously doubt is an "excellent business proposition". You would gain a few audiophile sales but lose most of your customers that would find another NC2k amp for cheaper and go with that.
 

lashto

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I put out the call; does anyone know anyone that has had a capacitor failure in a hypex or similar class D module, in the 10 to 15 years they been out, that can prove it; thus far?
"10 to 15 years" sounds quite exaggerated. Hypex NC was released ~2010 and really took off ~2015. Even more important, Hypex initially used top-tier caps, the cheapo-switch came much later (presumably after 2015). That would be less than 5 years worth of data and it's hardly relevant. Even cheapos will work that long, especially if they are not always-on.

Any manufacturer should get a slap when they start using cheapo parts, particularly when they do it 'stealthy'.
Why would Hypex get a free-pass?! Are we supposed to just 'eat' this and be happy?!
And if anyone thinks that this is not significant, maybe you should read a nice story with cheapo caps.

@restorer-john many thanks for pointing this out!

A few answers would be good to know:
  1. approx when did Hypex start using the cheapo caps? (and btw, haven't seen any price reductions for those cheapo-built NCs.)
  2. is there any way to choose/verify the caps brand? (when ordering from Hypex or distributors/builders)
  3. are the Purifi boards same as funky?
 
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Mulder

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I looked at photos of the new Purify modules, and it seems that they use capacitors from Rubycon. I guess these are assumed to be of high quality. The question then is why they use this type. Do they over-specify, or do the Purify modules require other capacitors, or does Hypex try to squeeze costs into the price of shorter life. Or is it the case that purifi knows that their new modules will be examined very carefully by demanding customers, and that for that reason they add some eye candy? I do not know, but it seems in all cases that they reasoned differently here.
 

wwenze

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Why not I ask the question then, at what point does each of you draw the line for quality? The metal must be taken from USA mines by non-slaves? Can the connector come from China? What about the semiconductor fab's country?

I don't think there is any disagreement with regards to the quality of "tier 1" vs "tier x" capacitor, ok, maybe a bit... because no where did the tier 1 manufacturer guarantee that their capacitor will last longer than the tier x and in all situations. That aside, (tho still something to keep in mind,) how much quality is needed seems to be the point of contention here. Reliability? Funny thing tho, electronics diagnosis was easy in the past with obvious bloated caps. Now I pretty much never see bloated capacitors unless it's tier 3 or 4 like Samwha or... oh wait...

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/thre...2LF50ZvlyPeE-DvfCcygae8tT-unmhdFJCAJLZR070fZs
Looks like the exact same series yea

Ok, now that we know they can still be the bottleneck, the question becomes how long and at what probability is considered acceptable. And this is just where people can just agree to disagree.
 
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NTK

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On reliability, we need to look at the whole system. Caps are just one component out of many. The other one I'd be concerned about is the microprocessor.
 

pavuol

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Had a somber development earlier this morning. No amount of money is going to remedy that so not going to ask you for any donations with this review.

I always wonder about long term "sustainibility" of your work pace, IMHO this is pretty crazy for one man. Despite every expactations, "pressure" and support from community I think you have always right to be "selfish" about your health and feel free to consider time out, be it several weeks, or months...
Now I'm ready to be stoned but I think every sane person understands. Take care.
 

PierreV

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Comparing an amplifier to any Aerospace component is completely asinine. Why don't we use Inconel heatsinks too while we're at it. :facepalm:

Can you be price competitive with beeswax fuses? ;)
 

jtwrace

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Can you be price competitive with beeswax fuses? ;)
Since you bring it up, yet another complete farce by the master snake oil salesman. People are worried about caps that have to pass standards yet they will buy and install a fuse that is meant to save their life and install it because they've been told to believe it will sound better.
 

PeteL

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We sold more than 1000 amplifiers worldwide. We are in this business since 2015. From around 1000 Hypex based amps that we sold there were not more than 15 faulty modules. None had a bad cap issue. 90% of the faulty modules were the Hypex MP series. The fail rate of Hypex modules is very low. I’m not advocating these caps used by Hypex at all. I’m just sharing our experience with these modules. Most of these caps have a lifetime of 5.000 rated at 105°C. None of these caps on the modules run at 105°C so a far longer lifetime is to be expected.
I have no opinion on this capacitor debate but I find a 1.5% in 5 years failure rate over 5 years a fairly high figure, for a TOTL product. So would you say the MP serie unrecommended? That’s not insignificant numbers, would you know The ratio of MP serie you sell versus separated PSU? The MP serie is only slightly cheaper, not enormous saving there. I personally had a NC500 module fail in a year as well.
 
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